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Cha-Ching 2.0

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CTYankee

Automaton Tech

136 posts

simonandmartina wrote:

Worth waiting for over a year?  I'm not too sure about that...

agreed...went to iBank and now Moneywell.  THAT has been worth the wait.  v1.4 will be very good.  He's added more features in this release (1.3 to 1.4) than CC has in 1.0 to 2.0 upgrade.  And done it in much less time.  WIth just one person.  MW v2.0 and the iPhone app are coming too.  I'd much rather invest in software with reliable development and a dedicated developer with great customer service.

November 17, 2008 5:07 pm
deepthought4200

deepthought4200

Tinkerer

19 posts

Ok, what's happened with this? The last beta was now close to 2 months ago. Should we be expected a 2.0 release soon?

November 24, 2008 3:36 am
simonandmartina

simonandmartina

Automaton Tech

from South Korea
429 posts

^No, you shouldn't.

Our ORANGE photo and movie blog in Bucheon, Korea: http://www.eatyourkimchi.com

November 24, 2008 5:00 am

CTYankee

Automaton Tech

136 posts

My guess is their time is on the iphone app.  That is something they can sell.  Why work on v 2.0 when 90% of their customers will get if for free?  No incentive to get it done when a huge market (iPhone) exists.  Only reason I can figure for how long v2 is taking and the beta program. 

Bottom line, these guys are slow and that should be factored into anything you think of CC and MA.

November 24, 2008 6:06 am
simonandmartina

simonandmartina

Automaton Tech

from South Korea
429 posts

In other words, they got their money, so there's no reason for them to keep working.

Our ORANGE photo and movie blog in Bucheon, Korea: http://www.eatyourkimchi.com

November 24, 2008 6:16 am
JPDyson

JPDyson

Moderator

3,580 posts

While it is true that a tone of people are getting 2.0 for free, if those same people like it, it's great advertising for roping in new customers. That, couple with the high level of communication and feedback throughout the beta process in the community shows me that they are working on EXISTING customers as well. I have no doubt they'll put out v2 when it is ready. The next beta version will be release on/by Nov. 30 - if you were in any way interested in knowing the progress, you could find out very easily by their forums.

PM me | Twitter

November 24, 2008 12:16 pm

dmdzine

Big Game Hunter

638 posts

jpdyson wrote:

While it is true that a tone of people are getting 2.0 for free, if those same people like it, it's great advertising for roping in new customers.

Unless, of course, they lose all that positive publicity because everybody is complaining how long 2.0 is taking, and how they are switching to other apps which they feel are better and more current.

November 24, 2008 10:31 pm
simonandmartina

simonandmartina

Automaton Tech

from South Korea
429 posts

I mean, really now, what do you think the percentages will be touting the awesomeness of v2 when it finally comes out (many months from now) as opposed to the percentage of people who complained and switched?  I think there are far more abandoners of ChaChing than there are satisfied customers.

No?

Our ORANGE photo and movie blog in Bucheon, Korea: http://www.eatyourkimchi.com

November 24, 2008 11:02 pm

CTYankee

Automaton Tech

136 posts

jpdyson wrote:

While it is true that a tone of people are getting 2.0 for free, if those same people like it, it's great advertising for roping in new customers. That, couple with the high level of communication and feedback throughout the beta process in the community shows me that they are working on EXISTING customers as well. I have no doubt they'll put out v2 when it is ready. The next beta version will be release on/by Nov. 30 - if you were in any way interested in knowing the progress, you could find out very easily by their forums.

That communication didn't start until about 9 months after they said we'd have a beta.  So most of the existing customers were already hacked off at them or have moved on to greener pastures. 

They had a great opportunity to leverage the MHII chatter into success.  Rather they let themselves get roped into a bad deal (v2 for free and a beta during the sale) and didn't so much for months after. Moneywell has really matured in that time and is proving what a solid developer can do for his product and with customer service.  Ken is probably the big winner in all this.

November 25, 2008 7:16 pm

h00ligan

Tinkerer

16 posts

here's hoping they integrate with basic online presence.

The app is designed well,but seriously lacking.

December 10, 2008 7:48 am
willwood

willwood

Automaton Tech

from Devon, UK
403 posts

I'm going to look at switching to iBank or Moneywell soon.

As much as I like to support independent Mac developers, I don't really have time waiting months and months for broken Beta's to be launched. And now that the developer has stopped responding to my bug reports and forum postings, I don't think I can dedicate anymore time to supporting CC.

The problem seems to be that too much time has been spent on eye-candy (e.g. window effects and animations) and not much time has been spent on the actual functionality and usability of the product. Why for example are new transactions still marked as pending by default?

CC could have been a great product, but I think other applications have now overtaken it.

December 11, 2008 12:05 pm
jer2665

jer2665

Big Game Hunter

from South Windsor, CT
800 posts

if you like that style, with the eye candy, check out ibank, if you like budgeting check out moneywell, both are other independent mac developers, and I'm sure everyones heard how great kevin from moneywell is, and all my chats with iggsoftware (ibank) have been extremely quick, helpful and pleasant.  unfortunately, chaching is just not worth waiting

My twitter

December 11, 2008 3:14 pm

CTYankee

Automaton Tech

136 posts

I own Cha-Ching, Moneywell, and iBank 3.  The best...Moneywell by a longshot.  CC is run by a couple of clowns who have taken a year to get a beta out that they said would be ready in a few weeks/months.  So either they are dishonest, incompetent, or uncommitted.  Either one is not who I do business with.  iBank has lots of eye candy, but just lacks in usability.  The budgeting is nearly worthless.  For more accountant style use, it is very good as it tracks numbers and data well, but with too much eye candy that slows it down. 

Moneywell...great usability, easy to use, very stable, great budgeting, and hands down the best developer in the market....dare I say best independent dev there is?  v1.4 was developed quickly and with several v2 level features.  He is really taking it to the next level in a 1.x release.  All that in a fraction of the time it has taken CC to get the mediocre v2 beta up, much less a final release.  Oh, and they have 2 or three guys.  MW is just Ken.  Imagine what Moneywell v2 will be.  Oh, and an iPhone app is coming too.  You money is in good hands with Ken...literally and figuratively.

December 11, 2008 6:11 pm
atm153

atm153

Automaton Tech

from Lincoln, NE
140 posts

Speaking of vaporware, what happened to that app with the nice GUI, looked like a shredder if I remember correctly?

Go Green Monkeys!
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December 11, 2008 11:21 pm
jer2665

jer2665

Big Game Hunter

from South Windsor, CT
800 posts

yeah, that app, can't remember what it's called, but the developer came out at some point and said he stopped working on it, and it's going nowhere.

My twitter

December 11, 2008 11:36 pm
boboboe

boboboe

Moderator

from Eastern Canada
2,356 posts

That was Ollie Wagner and SafeDepositApp.  Unfortunately his developer wasn't able to finish the coding, and the app sort of fell through.

Flickr

December 12, 2008 1:42 am
simonandmartina

simonandmartina

Automaton Tech

from South Korea
429 posts

I've officially moved over to Squirrel.  I spent my money elsewhere. 

Man, this Cha-Ching ordeal has pissed me off so royally.  I need to find some good excuse for them taking so damned long on this product.  Are they incompetent?  If they'd admit that the project is beyond their capabilities, then I'd understand.  If not, I'm finding it hard to understand why this would take well over a year now.

Seriously.  Seriously.  This sucks so hard.

Our ORANGE photo and movie blog in Bucheon, Korea: http://www.eatyourkimchi.com

December 15, 2008 6:08 am
macpug18

macpug18

Sky Pirate

1,144 posts

Unfortunately, I've also pretty much given up on Midnight Apps.  Too little, too late.  I've heard complaints against MH because of this, but you've gotta remember, these guys promised MH the same thing they promised us...that a beta was "close" or something like that....not too far off, just down the road, and all that crap.  We can't fault MH for that.  I hope these guys get it together, but I think if and when that happens, everyone will have long ago moved on to something else.  I like Squirrel as well, but my they don't import the format my bank uses.  I might still be able to do it, but we'll see. 

Another one with a great deal of promise that I've been beta testing for a few months is "Prosperity" by Barton Springs Software.  I LOVE the app so far. It does everything I want it to do, not a lot of bells and whistles...it just works.  Head over to Barton Springs Software and sign up.  They've just started a limited public beta.  Hopefully this thing will be good to go soon. 

Cheers!

You've just read my signature

December 15, 2008 9:35 am
sachakun

sachakun

Gearhead

from Bern, Switzerland
56 posts

Moneywell 1.4 is out, and it has all the features that you need.
And the developer actually has delivered all the features he promised.

Cha ching is just an amusing sidestory to watch.

Green Team FTW

December 15, 2008 9:40 am
Pace

Pace

Automaton Tech

from Brussels, Belgium
311 posts

macpug18 wrote:

Another one with a great deal of promise that I've been beta testing for a few months is "Prosperity" by Barton Springs Software.  I LOVE the app so far. It does everything I want it to do, not a lot of bells and whistles...it just works.  Head over to Barton Springs Software and sign up.  They've just started a limited public beta.  Hopefully this thing will be good to go soon.

Erm, I'm confused. That dates from 2007… and they say the product will be released early in 2008.

Peter "Pace" Craddock

Arpia.be - twaddle, music, novels and Arpia stuff.

December 15, 2008 11:06 am

CTYankee

Automaton Tech

136 posts

macpug18 wrote:

I've heard complaints against MH because of this, but you've gotta remember, these guys promised MH the same thing they promised us...that a beta was "close" or something like that....not too far off, just down the road, and all that crap.  We can't fault MH for that.

Getting the Beta preview and free 2.0 was indeed MH idea.  They asked MA for this and they reluctantly agreed (big mistake).  Aparently MH didn't ask to see a working version of 2.0 or notice that it was far from ready.  So MH is absolutely responsible for part of this mess.  The fact is MH does not do much background work for these.  They send out emails and chats asking for developers to join them.  Thats is.  No contracts or homework to make sure we don't get the shaft.  They hype things to no end make make promises they don't deliver on:  Cha-Ching 2.0, referral prizes for the retail bundle, referral system that doesn't work then they don't respond (Still waiting for a reply from the emails and PMs I sent regarding my second referral last year). 

I hope they learned from these mistakes and MH 3 has a refined referral process and signed contracts in place with developers.  I'm skeptical since everything these guys touch seems to suffer from this same lack of professionalism.

December 15, 2008 4:04 pm
spyker3292

spyker3292

Sky Pirate

from WI
1,728 posts

Well... I'm fine with just testing out the beta for now. It's a pretty solid app, and I use it for everything on my debit card. Now if only they would release that iPhone version soon...

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Go Green Monkeys Go!

December 15, 2008 9:27 pm
rampancy

rampancy

Moderator

from Denial.
3,890 posts

Reading over this thread I'm tempted to make a comparison to Duke Nukem Forever...but maybe Chinese Democracy is more apt. tongue

Marathon Forever.
AppShelf: MacHeist 3 Loot
AppShelf: nanoBundle 1
Check Reciept Page for nanoBundle 2 AppShelf Files.

December 15, 2008 10:38 pm
johnred

johnred

Directorate

1,869 posts

CTYankee wrote:
macpug18 wrote:

I've heard complaints against MH because of this, but you've gotta remember, these guys promised MH the same thing they promised us...that a beta was "close" or something like that....not too far off, just down the road, and all that crap.  We can't fault MH for that.

Getting the Beta preview and free 2.0 was indeed MH idea.  They asked MA for this and they reluctantly agreed (big mistake).  Aparently MH didn't ask to see a working version of 2.0 or notice that it was far from ready.  So MH is absolutely responsible for part of this mess.  The fact is MH does not do much background work for these.  They send out emails and chats asking for developers to join them.  Thats is.  No contracts or homework to make sure we don't get the shaft.  They hype things to no end make make promises they don't deliver on:  Cha-Ching 2.0, referral prizes for the retail bundle, referral system that doesn't work then they don't respond (Still waiting for a reply from the emails and PMs I sent regarding my second referral last year). 

I hope they learned from these mistakes and MH 3 has a refined referral process and signed contracts in place with developers.  I'm skeptical since everything these guys touch seems to suffer from this same lack of professionalism.

What the hell are you talking about? You have no idea about our conversations between us and them yet you state stuff you've pulled out of your ass as fact. You do this often and I don't recall *ever* seeing one single positive thing come from you.

As far s the "no contract" BS goes, we always had binding contracts. It's a ton of work to pull something like MacHeist together but we do our best to make it a great experience overall. But sometimes there'll be a loophole that someone will try to exploit, unfortunately. When there was a discrepancy with one of the apps for MacHeist II, I worked my ass off to get all of you what you paid for.

And you never PM'd me about any referral issue. If you did I would've remembered because seeing your name would've been a giant red flag for me. I just went through all my PMs for the past year to confirm this. If you feel like you've been cheated in some way, PM me for real this time and I'll be more than willing to give you a full refund.

Me and my unprofessional ass are going back to working on MacHeist 3... you, on the other hand, can go to hell.

P.S. Yeah, I know I'm opening up a can of worms here and this will likely lead to 100 back and forth responses between us but I simply have no tolerance for people who seem to get pleasure out of constantly shitting on others and I refuse to get pushed around by you.

John Casasanta
MacHeist Director
tap tap tap chief

December 16, 2008 1:05 am
boboboe

boboboe

Moderator

from Eastern Canada
2,356 posts

December 16, 2008 1:52 am
boboboe

boboboe

Moderator

from Eastern Canada
2,356 posts

Though from reading a few threads in their forums, the people there aren't much happier with how the development is coming along than we are.

Flickr

December 16, 2008 1:54 am
spyker3292

spyker3292

Sky Pirate

from WI
1,728 posts

boboboe wrote:

Cha-Ching 2.0 Beta 6: http://midnightapps.com/community/comme … e=1#Item_0

That isn't that new, end of Nov. I'm just wondering where that beta 7 coming "in a few days" is.

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Go Green Monkeys Go!

December 16, 2008 2:11 am
boboboe

boboboe

Moderator

from Eastern Canada
2,356 posts

spyker3292 wrote:
boboboe wrote:

Cha-Ching 2.0 Beta 6: http://midnightapps.com/community/comme … e=1#Item_0

That isn't that new, end of Nov. I'm just wondering where that beta 7 coming "in a few days" is.

Yeah, I noticed the date after I posted it. I thought it said Dec. 15th, but that was the date of the most recent post in that thread.

Flickr

December 16, 2008 2:54 am
Wasgo

Wasgo

Sky Pirate

from Vancouver, Canada
1,278 posts

johnred wrote:

If you feel like you've been cheated in some way, PM me for real this time and I'll be more than willing to give you a full refund.

Me and my unprofessional ass are going back to working on MacHeist 3... you, on the other hand, can go to hell.

Sweet. If you manage to truly piss off John you can get free software!

Silver Snakes Assemble!

Join Dropbox today and get an extra 250MB. Click here for details!

December 16, 2008 3:22 am
newsdork

newsdork

Sky Pirate

from Tennessee
1,477 posts

Yeah, but I'd rather get my free software via loot in MH3 instead of something I've already been using for a year from MH2.

Sometimes I feel so blue
It makes me twitter.

December 16, 2008 3:30 am
squawky

squawky

Big Game Hunter

from Miskatonic University
775 posts

newsdork wrote:

Yeah, but I'd rather get my free software via loot in MH3 instead of something I've already been using for a year from MH2.

And *without* pissing off John and the rest of the Directorate... isn't there some old saying about attracting flies with honey instead of vinegar (or hot sauce)?

Besides... it's going to be a long time before ChaChing 2.0 reaches the status of Duke Nukem Forever or Chinese Democracy.   (If it takes THAT long, maybe we can all get a free Dr. Pepper when it comes out.)

"I merely took the energy it takes to pout and wrote some blues." -- Duke Ellington

December 16, 2008 6:42 am
Wasgo

Wasgo

Sky Pirate

from Vancouver, Canada
1,278 posts

squawky wrote:

Besides... it's going to be a long time before ChaChing 2.0 reaches the status of Duke Nukem Forever or Chinese Democracy.   (If it takes THAT long, maybe we can all get a free Dr. Pepper when it comes out.)

Financial software is different than a game or an album. If you get other games or albums, you can still enjoy Duke Nukem Forever or Chinese Democracy when they're released. If you get different financial software, you'll never need Cha-Ching 2.0 at all.

Silver Snakes Assemble!

Join Dropbox today and get an extra 250MB. Click here for details!

December 16, 2008 6:44 am

CTYankee

Automaton Tech

136 posts

johnred wrote:
CTYankee wrote:
macpug18 wrote:

I've heard complaints against MH because of this, but you've gotta remember, these guys promised MH the same thing they promised us...that a beta was "close" or something like that....not too far off, just down the road, and all that crap.  We can't fault MH for that.

Getting the Beta preview and free 2.0 was indeed MH idea.  They asked MA for this and they reluctantly agreed (big mistake).  Aparently MH didn't ask to see a working version of 2.0 or notice that it was far from ready.  So MH is absolutely responsible for part of this mess.  The fact is MH does not do much background work for these.  They send out emails and chats asking for developers to join them.  Thats is.  No contracts or homework to make sure we don't get the shaft.  They hype things to no end make make promises they don't deliver on:  Cha-Ching 2.0, referral prizes for the retail bundle, referral system that doesn't work then they don't respond (Still waiting for a reply from the emails and PMs I sent regarding my second referral last year). 

I hope they learned from these mistakes and MH 3 has a refined referral process and signed contracts in place with developers.  I'm skeptical since everything these guys touch seems to suffer from this same lack of professionalism.

What the hell are you talking about? You have no idea about our conversations between us and them yet you state stuff you've pulled out of your ass as fact. You do this often and I don't recall *ever* seeing one single positive thing come from you.

As far s the "no contract" BS goes, we always had binding contracts. It's a ton of work to pull something like MacHeist together but we do our best to make it a great experience overall. But sometimes there'll be a loophole that someone will try to exploit, unfortunately. When there was a discrepancy with one of the apps for MacHeist II, I worked my ass off to get all of you what you paid for.

And you never PM'd me about any referral issue. If you did I would've remembered because seeing your name would've been a giant red flag for me. I just went through all my PMs for the past year to confirm this. If you feel like you've been cheated in some way, PM me for real this time and I'll be more than willing to give you a full refund.

Me and my unprofessional ass are going back to working on MacHeist 3... you, on the other hand, can go to hell.

P.S. Yeah, I know I'm opening up a can of worms here and this will likely lead to 100 back and forth responses between us but I simply have no tolerance for people who seem to get pleasure out of constantly shitting on others and I refuse to get pushed around by you.

Ignoring the temperament of your post I'll explain:
1.  Contracts.  Several developers confirmed to me in private emails that there was no written agreement.  There were even posts made on here explicitly talking about this lack of a contract and implicit acknowledgement of this from MH (ie not providing evidence of a contract or even adressing the issue).
http://www.macheist.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7507

If there were contracts, then I'm very confused why nothing was said about this given that was at the heart of the SD issue.

2.  Referral issue.  You are correct, I did not PM you.  I PM'd Phil and emailed some other address. 

Your reply is unfortunate and can only increase my perception of unprofessionalism. I am not trying to push anyone around, just mentioning facts as I have been told by those involved (the developers here and via email and yourself on these forums).  Am I a skeptic?  Yes.  The bungling mess that is Midnight Apps and CC 2.0, the crazy sandbox fight that was Speed Download 5, the vaporware of MDA and the nonsense that finally ended it...that is why there seems to be an element of unprofessionalism. 

For what it is worth, John.  When you are on your game you are very good.  However it seems details slip through the cracks that cause problems, problems arise, and perhaps your temper gets the best of you initially?  If it seems I have nothing good to say, it may be because I really don't exist in the middle ground.  I hold people accountable when they don't deliver (CC) and hold them up high when they do (Moneywell). 

I won't drag this out, but just wanted to explain why I said what I said.  I'll let you get back to work.  I know you can deliver a great program, and I really did mean it when I said I hope the lessons from last year will be reflected in this years program.  Sorry if my comments were too personal.

December 16, 2008 7:30 am
johnred

johnred

Directorate

1,869 posts

CTYankee wrote:

Ignoring the temperament of your post I'll explain:
1.  Contracts.  Several developers confirmed to me in private emails that there was no written agreement.  There were even posts made on here explicitly talking about this lack of a contract and implicit acknowledgement of this from MH (ie not providing evidence of a contract or even adressing the issue).
http://www.macheist.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7507

If there were contracts, then I'm very confused why nothing was said about this given that was at the heart of the SD issue.

2.  Referral issue.  You are correct, I did not PM you.  I PM'd Phil and emailed some other address. 

Your reply is unfortunate and can only increase my perception of unprofessionalism. I am not trying to push anyone around, just mentioning facts as I have been told by those involved (the developers here and via email and yourself on these forums).  Am I a skeptic?  Yes.  The bungling mess that is Midnight Apps and CC 2.0, the crazy sandbox fight that was Speed Download 5, the vaporware of MDA and the nonsense that finally ended it...that is why there seems to be an element of unprofessionalism. 

For what it is worth, John.  When you are on your game you are very good.  However it seems details slip through the cracks that cause problems, problems arise, and perhaps your temper gets the best of you initially?  If it seems I have nothing good to say, it may be because I really don't exist in the middle ground.  I hold people accountable when they don't deliver (CC) and hold them up high when they do (Moneywell). 

I won't drag this out, but just wanted to explain why I said what I said.  I'll let you get back to work.  I know you can deliver a great program, and I really did mean it when I said I hope the lessons from last year will be reflected in this years program.  Sorry if my comments were too personal.

As I said, the agreements we had in place were legally binding. They may not live up to the standards of everyone, but they work and people got what they paid for, even after a discrepancy with one developer.

And if you're such a skeptic and think I'm so unprofessional, you're free to leave anytime. I'm not forcing you to stay by any means. But I suspect that you'll likely still be here to grab whatever free apps we offer, while still complaining at every opportunity you get.

John Casasanta
MacHeist Director
tap tap tap chief

December 16, 2008 7:59 am
rampancy

rampancy

Moderator

from Denial.
3,890 posts

CTYankee wrote:

Your reply is unfortunate and can only increase my perception of unprofessionalism. I am not trying to push anyone around, just mentioning facts as I have been told by those involved (the developers here and via email and yourself on these forums).

Unprofessionalism is refusing to acknowledge your mistakes - making mistakes, however, is human. I know for a fact that John owned up to his mistakes with Yazsoft...Phill owned up to his mistakes with MDA (albeit arguably not with the sense of totality and closure that many would have liked). Even Christian Owens owned up to his antics with promoting MacBundleBox (and good on him for doing so). My playful jabs at Cha-Ching aside, Matthew and Juan have both owned up also to having dropped the ball, and there's even some hint that some RL issues from the past with Juan may have played a part here.

With respect to crowing about contracts, yeah, there was likely a lack of common sense here, but given that from what I've seen, the relationship between shareware developers and shareware consumers entails significantly more trust on the Mac than it does on Windows, so in retrospect it's not so surprising. Why do you think so many people fell for Howsen's schemes? Even he was able to ship a successful bundle.

What you perceive as an "element of unprofessionalism" to me is likely a combination of a lack of understanding of things from both the Directorate and the Developers' perspective, and likely a fair bit of bias too. What next, are you going to join people like Gruber and Kafasis and keep on repeating the tired, tired Mantra that John and Phill are the Robber Barrons of the Mac Shareware Community? 

Am I a skeptic? Yes.

Actually, no, you're not. Skeptics are doubters - you on the other hand seem to take the default position levelling the accusation of unprofessionalism. It seems like nothing would ever satisfy whatever unattainable expectations you have of the Directorate.

Marathon Forever.
AppShelf: MacHeist 3 Loot
AppShelf: nanoBundle 1
Check Reciept Page for nanoBundle 2 AppShelf Files.

December 16, 2008 1:20 pm

CTYankee

Automaton Tech

136 posts

I'm not sure what these legally binding agreements are, and semantics of 'contract' vs 'legally binding agreement' (not the same thing) aside I come from a background where I would never get involved in anything without a written/signed contract.  That is just the way the industries I've worked and owned a business in operated.  So this more relaxed way of doing things is a much different way of operating and we all know what can and does happen as a result. 

Sure guys have owned up to mistakes, but that doesn't make those mistakes any less unprofessional.  My expectations in matters like this are pretty simple.  Do what you say you will.  MH2 did not deliver in some ways (referral system errors, CC 2) and things were not handled well when the wheels started falling off.  So what began as a mistake deteriorated into unprofessionalism from my persective.  Perhaps Phil's actions have cast too much of an unprofessional light on MH in my eyes.  John brings all the professionalism this place has imo (between the two of them).  I just don't think his angry name calling and profane posts are a good way to conduct business, but thats just me.  Many would agree that such antics are indeed unprofessional. 

Anyway, enough on all this.  Like the saying goes...don't teach a pig to sing.  You'll waste your time and annoy the pig.  (not calling anyone names, just another way of saying this won't accomplish much more than stir things up). 

And I hope to have many good things to say about MH3 and I will try and be less negative.  I agree that I can be too negative and even at times I don't mean to be comments can seem that way.  Lesson learned (learning more accurately) for me.  Good day all.

December 16, 2008 6:20 pm
johnred

johnred

Directorate

1,869 posts

CTYankee wrote:

I'm not sure what these legally binding agreements are, and semantics of 'contract' vs 'legally binding agreement' (not the same thing) aside I come from a background where I would never get involved in anything without a written/signed contract.  That is just the way the industries I've worked and owned a business in operated.  So this more relaxed way of doing things is a much different way of operating and we all know what can and does happen as a result.

As I said, "they may not live up to the standards of everyone, but they work".

John Casasanta
MacHeist Director
tap tap tap chief

December 16, 2008 6:44 pm
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