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License trading and bundle splits no more

MacHeist Forums » Deals Around the Web » License trading and bundle splits no more
phillryu

phillryu

Administrator

1,569 posts

As of today, we are no longer allowing the trade of used software licenses and 'bundle splitting' in our community.

We get that many of you guys are here to save some money hunting down deals on cool software, but after taking a hard look at these two methods in particular, we strongly feel they are not in line with what this community is about.

License trading

Many of you have used the forums to set up trades with other members for used software licenses. Most of you have been careful to keep these trades legitimate, and involve the developers in transferring licenses. However, there have been incidents where members have been exploited or conned by others who are not interested in an honest transaction, and only interested in snagging free licenses. Beyond that, most developers don't have a system set up for transferring licenses or to protect against people using multiple copies of the same license. In short? It's super messy.

There is simply no way for us to effectively regulate all trades going on here, and a lot of potential for damage – from members getting screwed, to developers getting bamboozled, and MacHeist being perceived as a haven for casual piracy etc, so yeah. No more license trading in these forums.

Bundle splitting

Another popular activity in these forums is 'splitting bundles' between members by going in on one purchase together for individual apps.

Listen, there's nothing criminal about that. If you go ahead and organize that with some friends because you can't afford the bundle, no problems by us. But please do so outside of the community. We support the gifting of individual licenses in our bundles for the purpose of gifting – otherwise, we work really hard to pack a TON of value into our software packages, and it's not hard to feel like many bundle splitters are exploiting the idea of a bundle and its participating developers to purchase individual apps à la carte at 90%+ off.

And similar to the license trading situation, most bundles don't offer individualized gifting options, and so you're left sharing individualized software licenses registered to someone else, which developers aren't really prepared to deal with.

Here's the awkward part, you guys have treated us really well here before in regards to bundle splitting. I don't even remember many threads going on during MacHeist 3 where people were organizing bundle splits. But I do remember many similar threads for competing bundles, and when I see those threads, I don't think it casts our community in the positive light it deserves.

So we're going to see what happens with this new policy.

Again, I know that many of you have been legitimately trading licenses or splitting bundles with real reason to do so – and I hope this policy change doesn't prevent you from carrying on with your legitimate trades and such with people you trust. But it's one of those cases where the bad apples are ruining the barrel, and clearly the highest priority here is serving the community as a whole, so in the end this was a fairly straightforward decision for us.

And as a side note, coming after canceling Christmas I feel very grinch-like... but I promise we will make it up to you guys over the year. smile

Feel free to discuss.

Co-Creator of MacHeist, Clear, Partner at tap tap tap | follow me on twitter

January 8, 2010 11:53 pm
frigginjoe

frigginjoe

Big Game Hunter

from Long Island
697 posts

Sounds reasonable and probably nothing but appropriate.
Glad I got that 2nd Textmate license transferred to me in time. tongue

I like the per-app gifting option at the time of the bundle sale, and hope to see that continue, just for the sake of getting the exposure out there more effectively.  That's the only reason I personally have given out bundle apps.

Whatever works best for the developers and keeps leechedness down sounds good to me.

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January 9, 2010 12:09 am
JackV

JackV

Sky Pirate

from Germany
1,072 posts

Hi Phill,

I totally understand this measure. For me the whole bundlesplitting scenario only occurred due to the huge amount of bundles this year and there would have definitely been some MH4 splits as well. One can´t afford them all. Maybe that also helps to really only buy the apps you need and not the ones you think you need or that are fancy.

And I am sure you and the other MH-Staff are delivering something in 2010 that makes up for not having the giving tree last year.

Best regards,
Chris

I write about Juice on Entsafter.co

January 9, 2010 12:15 am

DtotheP

Tinkerer

18 posts

i agree with your decision because there have to be limits to what is allowed in a forum such as this, otherwise it dissolves into undesirable leeching and such - especially since this forum is a branch of what is essentially a software retailer's site.  i'm a member of a videogame sale forum and whenever there is a big clearance at a game store, it only takes a few pages before the whole conversation turns into people exploiting the sale by snagging multiple clearance games and "flipping" them at other stores for profit; very ugly.

on a side note, i'm pretty sure bundle-splitting threads would go over like gangbusters there haha.

January 9, 2010 12:15 am
izdale

izdale

Sky Pirate

from the U.S.
1,766 posts

I figured this would happen eventually, and I agree that it's time to close it down. It worked well for awhile, but it was getting a little out of hand. What will happen to the Giveaway Request Thread? Can people still giveaway extra licenses or would that be included in this? If so, that should be locked as well.

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January 9, 2010 12:22 am
phillryu

phillryu

Administrator

1,569 posts

izdale wrote:

I figured this would happen eventually, and I agree that it's time to close it down. It worked well for awhile, but it was getting a little out of hand. What will happen to the Giveaway Request Thread? Can people still giveaway extra licenses or would that be included in this? If so, that should be locked as well.

That's something to discuss. I'd have to say that a lot of the messiness still applies here, with transferring licenses and such, but of course you would presumably replace any greed/malice with just good will removing most nastiness – just the possibility that the donator would keep using the license they give away.

Ahhh, slippery slopes.

Co-Creator of MacHeist, Clear, Partner at tap tap tap | follow me on twitter

January 9, 2010 12:33 am
DreadedKilla

DreadedKilla

Sky Pirate

from Kelowna
1,164 posts

Oh well... gonna look elsewhere for license trading then.

January 9, 2010 1:04 am
GuyWithAQuestion

GuyWithAQuestion

Tinkerer

10 posts

I don't suppose this means a new MacHeist is imminent? smile

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January 9, 2010 4:20 am
mil

mil

Sky Pirate

1,273 posts

I agree with MacHeist getting the rap for bad trades and stuff, and it does make sense not to pollute these forums with trades and splits (even though I have done some of these myself). Going by this decision, I feel the "Apps for Sale/Trade" thread and also any individual split threads should be deleted completely from the forums instead of being locked (deleting the split threads/posts may take some time though). Or is the plan to provide some "grace period" for more trades to happen within these locked threads?

The other points about bundle splits don't make sense. If people split bundles for whatever reason, it just means that all the "value" that bundle organizers have packed into the bundle is meaningless for that segment of customers. A bundle split is no more an exploitation than a bundle itself is. It's market dynamics and purely customer choice that decides what customers want from what they see as a good deal. That ought to be clear to marketers, especially the pioneers from MH.

For all the talk about value, many people who buy bundles (including me) use just two or three apps from it and find it tiring to have apps that don't seem useful for them. The bundle model needs to mature a lot more and badly needs some changes.

Digressing a little bit on bundle app gifts/splits - the recent MacUpdate bundle was probably the best organized bundle for gifts/splits. Most bundles allow gifting, but they still send and/or show the serials to the person who makes the payment. But in the recent MU bundle, all "gifted" licenses were not only sent directly to the recipient, but the person who paid for the bundle doesn't even get to know the license codes for the gifted licenses. It has worked well and does help a lot in making sure that splits work as developers would expect them to work.

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January 9, 2010 6:28 am
jfm429

jfm429

Sky Pirate

from Behind You
2,196 posts

I figured this would happen eventually.  I can't say I'm exactly thrilled, and I never had any trouble with them myself, but I can see the point.

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January 9, 2010 6:41 am
johnred

johnred

Directorate

1,869 posts

mil wrote:

Digressing a little bit on bundle app gifts/splits - the recent MacUpdate bundle was probably the best organized bundle for gifts/splits. Most bundles allow gifting, but they still send and/or show the serials to the person who makes the payment. But in the recent MU bundle, all "gifted" licenses were not only sent directly to the recipient, but the person who paid for the bundle doesn't even get to know the license codes for the gifted licenses. It has worked well and does help a lot in making sure that splits work as developers would expect them to work.

And keep in mind that the recent MUPromo bundle was also probably the biggest failure in bundle history as far as the major bundle players go. Developers that we talked with weren't happy at all.

We obviously want to keep the bundle business alive while also doing what we can to prevent piracy, no matter no innocuous it seems. Computer software sales are severely suffering lately and while it'd be hard to directly blame it on license trading and bundle splitting, these things likely aren't helping the situation, especially when illegal ones are going on.

We've always taken a very strong stance against piracy and we're not going to back down from it now. As Phill said, a few bad apples spoiled the whole bunch with all this.

John Casasanta
MacHeist Director
tap tap tap chief

January 9, 2010 7:44 am
rbr

rbr

Automaton Tech

from The Happy, CA
257 posts

I like this decision.  The initial spirit of the Apps for Sale/Trade thread was great, but after seeing people listing mostly Loot and/or nanoBundle apps for sale was outright ridiculous and turned me off to the whole thing.  I have more than one license for several apps but chose to never sell them since most of these extra licenses I got for free so that'd be bad karma all around.

Thumbs up.

EDIT: spelling.  Sorry, I'm really tired tonight.

PurpleCompadres

January 9, 2010 7:53 am
johnred

johnred

Directorate

1,869 posts

rbr wrote:

I like this decision.  The initial spirit of the Apps for Sale/Trade thread was great, but after seeing people listing mostly Loot and/or nanoBundle apps for sale was outright ridiculous and turned me off to the whole thing.  I have more than one license for several apps but chose to never sell them since most of these extra licenses I got for free so that'd be bad karma all around.

Thumbs up.

EDIT: spelling.  Sorry, I'm really tired tonight.

I always found it really amusing when people would post in the trades threads here with a list of apps consisting only of our loot apps.

Also, I'm really glad that the response has generally been so favorable toward our decision to do this. I'm often proud of the MacHeist community and this is definitely on of those times.

John Casasanta
MacHeist Director
tap tap tap chief

January 9, 2010 8:03 am
danco

danco

Automaton Tech

from London, England
280 posts

It will be interesting to see what happens to the sales of the next bundle.

Bundle splits - or at least arranging via the forums for different apps to be licensed to different names when purchasing the bundle - can have a major effect on whether a bundle is worth purchasing.

But it should save developers a fair bit of trouble.

Daniel

January 9, 2010 8:10 am
Lioness

Lioness

Sky Pirate

from Universe (Sweden)
1,474 posts

Perfectly ok with me, I thought myself it was going in a bad direction, while I too was amused but shaking head to the silly ways people listed loot apps from MacHeist for sale/trade. How low can people sink I thought.
I had one successful and good trade, that was welcome and fun. Tried to participate in bundle splits and some more trades, but it was not hitting off, and neither were the apps anything I wanted so much as the successful trade.

Looking forward to MH 4 now..... yikes

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January 9, 2010 8:33 am
BigMark

BigMark

Sky Pirate

from Kent, UK.
1,543 posts

100% behind this, I've given away a few licences but never sold any.  Even when giving them away I've wondered whether I've denied a small income to a developer simply because he was good enough to take part in a bundle, especially when they have work to do to transfer the licence.

For me the correct approach is "Is there enough in this bundle that's worth the total price to me".  If yes, I buy, if no... I buy anyway as it might be useful later! big_smile

Complete support for this decision from me.

Mark.

January 9, 2010 9:16 am
JackV

JackV

Sky Pirate

from Germany
1,072 posts

I think, the giveaway request thread should be kept alive,

if I would give away a license here in public I would not dare to keep using it. I also make sure that the new user gets a license for his name which is a lot more work for me. But only then there is no possibility that my name make it´s way to the torrent networks...

The devs handle this matter themselves. Ironic issued new licenses and encouraged me to use my old ones to get the edge on their apps. (Now I am an Yep user and my dad bought the bundle over there. Thumbs up!)

Cocoatech told me that I can use my license but only as he has no measure to check the used licenses (I felt like I was treatet as a software pirate here)

Some agreed to transfer the license to another email but won´t change the name to not create a second license.

Some didn´t change anything but said, that it is okay.

Some asked to uninstall the software (which is the usual way) and some only expected that I won´t use the app anymore.

Very few declined the transfer.



Conclusion: the devs handle this themselves. The give away thread is really for those noble minded to give away and they givers are the only ones who "lose" something here and have work. Request should staty why you actually need this particular app for.

I write about Juice on Entsafter.co

January 9, 2010 10:30 am
matthewlowery

matthewlowery

Automaton Tech

from England
383 posts

jfm429 wrote:

I figured this would happen eventually.  I can't say I'm exactly thrilled, and I never had any trouble with them myself, but I can see the point.

...pluswan...  Will just have to find another forum to swap licenses then sad

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January 9, 2010 12:51 pm
MacAndy

MacAndy

Automaton Tech

from Bavaria
116 posts

BigMark wrote:

For me the correct approach is "Is there enough in this bundle that's worth the total price to me".  If yes, I buy, if no... I buy anyway as it might be useful later! big_smile

+1

I'll be with you!

I'll think the Giveaway thread should be reopend, only for gifting.

My 2ct

Andreas
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January 9, 2010 2:21 pm
mil

mil

Sky Pirate

1,273 posts

rbr wrote:

I like this decision.  The initial spirit of the Apps for Sale/Trade thread was great, but after seeing people listing mostly Loot and/or nanoBundle apps for sale was outright ridiculous and turned me off to the whole thing.

Yeah, the loot license and nanobundle license trading did look quite embarrassing. sad

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January 9, 2010 2:30 pm
lecycliste

lecycliste

Automaton Tech

from Switzerland
122 posts

hooray, I can start reading this forum again

Cycling leads to Wisdom

January 9, 2010 2:37 pm
izdale

izdale

Sky Pirate

from the U.S.
1,766 posts

Funny how most of the people opposed to this are the ones who were trying to trade loot apps. Maybe they will have better luck trading them outside of the place where they got them tongue

mil wrote:

I agree with MacHeist getting the rap for bad trades and stuff, and it does make sense not to pollute these forums with trades and splits (even though I have done some of these myself). Going by this decision, I feel the "Apps for Sale/Trade" thread and also any individual split threads should be deleted completely from the forums instead of being locked (deleting the split threads/posts may take some time though).

I agree that the topics should be deleted, otherwise trading will still go on via PM's from things listed in that topic, even though new ones can't be added.

phillryu wrote:
izdale wrote:

I figured this would happen eventually, and I agree that it's time to close it down. It worked well for awhile, but it was getting a little out of hand. What will happen to the Giveaway Request Thread? Can people still giveaway extra licenses or would that be included in this? If so, that should be locked as well.

That's something to discuss. I'd have to say that a lot of the messiness still applies here, with transferring licenses and such, but of course you would presumably replace any greed/malice with just good will removing most nastiness – just the possibility that the donator would keep using the license they give away.

Another problem is that someone will post for an app that they want as a giveaway, and some people will respond asking what they have to trade for it. Maybe it could stay open and if there are problems, then close it also.

lecycliste wrote:

hooray, I can start reading this forum again

It was only one topic in a large list of topics. Easy to skip over if you didn't want to read it.

Find deals on Mac apps at Mac App Deals

January 9, 2010 3:01 pm
mtaylor

mtaylor

Big Game Hunter

755 posts

johnred wrote:

And keep in mind that the recent MUPromo bundle was also probably the biggest failure in bundle history as far as the major bundle players go. Developers that we talked with weren't happy at all.

Could you quantify this for us, John?

In communist russia, the normal force pushes on you!

January 9, 2010 3:07 pm

Jeff_R

Automaton Tech

187 posts

Although I'm not that active a poster in these forums, I have to say I'm a big fan of this decision. I've always felt what made bundles work for the developers was that people would see value in x number of the apps and so buy the bundle, usually ending up with a mixture of "must have/really want", "fun to try", and "don't really need that much". The economics of this are fairly clear; even though developers aren't getting full retail price, they presumably get increased sales as people buy the apps who might be primarily attracted to other parts of the bundle. But if bundle splits get commonplace, then that just eliminates the increased sales and turns the retail price into some fraction of its former value.

There are a lot of bundles, and most people probably can't afford to buy them all. But then we just have to chose not to buy them. I'm a DVD collector, and I can't buy all of those. :-) It's just a matter of rewarding the software developers when enough value is there for us, and accepting delayed/denied gratification when the value or our budget isn't sufficient, something many of us nowadays are poor at doing. ;-)

As a side note, and not to criticize the process of anyone at all, I always saw bundle splits as a lot of work! Spreadsheet templates, PayPal transactions, all for $2-$7 or so per app... Considering most bundles are $40-$50, I just couldn't see the point. Again, that's just me. In the Windows world, which I just recently moved from, software is $20-$400 or more for just about everything that does anything substantial... When I'm getting things like 1Password and the Koingo Utility Bundle for free, and things like Parallels Desktop and Mariner Software titles in bundles, I'm really happy bundles exist at all; I don't want to do anything to kill the goose that's so content to keep laying golden eggs.

Great call, MacHeist.

January 9, 2010 3:25 pm
hias

hias

Big Game Hunter

from Palermo
633 posts

amusing to see how some chief bundle splitters and master lincense swappers now love John's decision. kind of absurd.

January 9, 2010 3:39 pm
Miah

Miah

Moderator

3,679 posts

mtaylor wrote:
johnred wrote:

And keep in mind that the recent MUPromo bundle was also probably the biggest failure in bundle history as far as the major bundle players go. Developers that we talked with weren't happy at all.

Could you quantify this for us, John?

If he doesn't, I can certainly try. Less than 10,000 bundle sales, even after a sizeable extension. The "early bird" bonus didn't ever run out, and the two free apps offered in hopes of piquing internet didn't really provide any boost whatsoever.

Though, frankly, I blame that the sum of the things useful to me in their retail price added up still cost less than the bundle. Either way, this sure wasn't helping.

䷟䷽䷏䷁ — Dying of the Light.

January 9, 2010 4:01 pm
mtaylor

mtaylor

Big Game Hunter

755 posts

Miah wrote:
mtaylor wrote:
johnred wrote:

And keep in mind that the recent MUPromo bundle was also probably the biggest failure in bundle history as far as the major bundle players go. Developers that we talked with weren't happy at all.

Could you quantify this for us, John?

If he doesn't, I can certainly try. Less than 10,000 bundle sales, even after a sizeable extension. The "early bird" bonus didn't ever run out, and the two free apps offered in hopes of piquing internet didn't really provide any boost whatsoever.

Though, frankly, I blame that the sum of the things useful to me in their retail price added up still cost less than the bundle. Either way, this sure wasn't helping.

10k bundles sounds about par for mupromo though, wouldn't you say?  Total sales were probably around $0.45M.  It's hard to compare any bundle to macheist's meteoric success, but most of the other bundles out there fail to sell even 1000 units.  Keeping in mind that the bundles are not mu's only product, but really, a supplemental one, I wouldn't call it an outright failure.  The perspective from developers involved may be different, however.

In communist russia, the normal force pushes on you!

January 9, 2010 4:26 pm
lecycliste

lecycliste

Automaton Tech

from Switzerland
122 posts

hooray, I can start reading this forum again


It was only one topic in a large list of topics. Easy to skip over if you didn't want to read it.

That is not true (as you well know) .... for example every bundle thread was polluted with bundle split stuff.

eg. "I'll take pathfinder if anyone wants to do another split, etc, etc, etc"

Cycling leads to Wisdom

January 9, 2010 4:27 pm
paradime

paradime

Automaton Tech

466 posts

phillryu wrote:

Feel free to discuss.

Although I've personally benefited from this type of activity, I completely recognize this isn't really what's best for the respective developers. I applaud MacHeist for, once again, taking a leadership position and doing what's best.

johnred wrote:

And keep in mind that the recent MUPromo bundle was also probably the biggest failure in bundle history as far as the major bundle players go. Developers that we talked with weren't happy at all.

I can't help but feel that it's largely self-inflected for a variety of reasons. MUPromo is just like all the other MacBundles out there instead of trying to shake things up and differentiating themselves. The various MacBundles (MUPromo included) don't really add anything to the concept.

Developers who choose to participate in these "bundles of the week" really need to think twice. A perfect example in my mind are the developers who continue to participate in flops bundle like MacFriendly. I've completely lost respect for them.

On the other hand, MH's missions + loot + bundles + active community is perfect in so many ways. It's truly an event and you can't help but want to support the participating developers.

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January 9, 2010 4:34 pm
izdale

izdale

Sky Pirate

from the U.S.
1,766 posts

Miah wrote:
mtaylor wrote:

Less than 10,000 bundle sales, even after a sizeable extension. The "early bird" bonus didn't ever run out, and the two free apps offered in hopes of piquing internet didn't really provide any boost whatsoever.

10k bundles sounds about par for mupromo though, wouldn't you say?  Total sales were probably around $0.45M.  It's hard to compare any bundle to macheist's meteoric success, but most of the other bundles out there fail to sell even 1000 units.  Keeping in mind that the bundles are not mu's only product, but really, a supplemental one, I wouldn't call it an outright failure.  The perspective from developers involved may be different, however.

Their last bundle had over 40,000 sales. That's a very large drop.

lecycliste wrote:

hooray, I can start reading this forum again

It was only one topic in a large list of topics. Easy to skip over if you didn't want to read it.

That is not true .... for example every bundle thread was polluted with bundle split stuff.

eg. "I'll take pathfinder if anyone wants to do another split, etc, etc, etc"

I was just referring to the trade thread when I said that. So you're right, I wasn't thinking of those.

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January 9, 2010 4:57 pm

WLCMac

Tinkerer

14 posts

I was one of the minor participants and I must say that I really appreciated the opportunities given.

Out of curiosity, would MacHeist invite the developers (just a few) to share their personal experiences of piracy on Mac platform and the normal day-to-day operational expanses? So that the next time to make a purchase, I (or others) will make a clear judgement of the software's inherent value?

Piracy is a mute issue on Macs that I've personally wished it to be discussed.

January 9, 2010 5:00 pm
JackV

JackV

Sky Pirate

from Germany
1,072 posts

hias wrote:

amusing to see how some chief bundle splitters and master lincense swappers now love John's decision. kind of absurd.

Why is that? I still would do it if there is another platform available. One must simple consider that this is the forums of the major bundle provider and they just want to keep it clean.

I write about Juice on Entsafter.co

January 9, 2010 5:39 pm
rbr

rbr

Automaton Tech

from The Happy, CA
257 posts

danco wrote:

Bundle splits - or at least arranging via the forums for different apps to be licensed to different names when purchasing the bundle - can have a major effect on whether a bundle is worth purchasing.

But it should save developers a fair bit of trouble.

Agreed.  The devs have saved us a ton of dough.  Saving them from this extra bit of trouble is just another way to say "thank you" to them, IMHO.  I won't cast any stones on those that have split bundles, as I myself did purchase three apps from the latest MU Holiday bundle from other people here.  Hell of a deal for me, and everyone I dealt with was honest and fair.  However, I did see potential for some to try and sell multiple people the same license, or even buy multiple licenses for cheap then turn around and try to sell them for a profit.  I can see how slippery the slope could become and I think shutting down license trading and bundle splits here keeps this community as a whole from sliding down on it.

johnred wrote:

Also, I'm really glad that the response has generally been so favorable toward our decision to do this. I'm often proud of the MacHeist community and this is definitely on of those times.

I can only speak for myself, but I am quite grateful for the community John, Phil and everyone here at MacHeist have built, and I'm very proud to be a part of it.  It's obvious they set themselves to higher standards, and have done so yet again with this decision.  I'm gonna do my best to follow their example.

PurpleCompadres

January 9, 2010 6:13 pm
denny_crane

denny_crane

Sky Pirate

from Canada, eh?
1,702 posts

I, for one am quite fine with this decision.

Bundle-splitting, in my opinion was an okay thing for everyone EXCEPT the
developer's. Sure the developer moved some licenses, but when it comes to
exchanging licenses... it must be a royal PIA. (pain-in-ass). Considering they
are selling their app. at a ridiculously low price, the whole idea is to make it
as admin-free as possible. Receiving 100's of emails to exchange licenses
is NOT admin-free cuz it's totally PIA. I tried to do a bundle-split a month
ago and in emailing developers for the license exchanges - I was NOT receiving
responses. That in itself is a most obvious indicator how they feel about bundle
splits and an indicator to me these really are not a good idea for ALL parties
concerned. In other words = FAIL.

App trading on here has/had become quite ridiculous. I really pity the Fools who list
all kinds of apps they have (free apps & loot apps from MH & others) and then
make up a list of "higher grade" apps. they are looking for.  The efforts involved
to do all of that, and for developer's to exchange all kinds of licenses... OMFG!
In my mind I was always thinking... go out and get a job, and earn your $20-40
in 2 to 4 hours, and then purchase your MUCH DESIRED app. direct from the developer.
Shutting that stuff down on MH Forums is good for EVERYONE.

+1

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January 9, 2010 6:16 pm
waffles123

waffles123

Automaton Tech

166 posts

D'oh!  I'm in the middle of a trade for pixelmator b/c I know pixelmator is such a hot item, so I can trade it for pretty much any app I want.  And now that the trade thread is gone, how will I know who wants pixelmator and which apps they have for trade??  Well this sucks.  I hope you will not actually remove the thread, just lock it, so we can see what apps other people have to trade so we can message them not using macheist, but using IM, or email.

I like waffles

January 9, 2010 6:36 pm
Warbrain

Warbrain

Banned

from Not here.
6,979 posts

waffles123 wrote:

D'oh!  I'm in the middle of a trade for pixelmator b/c I know pixelmator is such a hot item, so I can trade it for pretty much any app I want.  And now that the trade thread is gone, how will I know who wants pixelmator and which apps they have for trade??  Well this sucks.  I hope you will not actually remove the thread, just lock it, so we can see what apps other people have to trade so we can message them not using macheist, but using IM, or email.

Not really an option.

It's over. Doesn't continue here.

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January 9, 2010 6:41 pm
Warbrain

Warbrain

Banned

from Not here.
6,979 posts

WLCMac wrote:

I was one of the minor participants and I must say that I really appreciated the opportunities given.

Out of curiosity, would MacHeist invite the developers (just a few) to share their personal experiences of piracy on Mac platform and the normal day-to-day operational expanses? So that the next time to make a purchase, I (or others) will make a clear judgement of the software's inherent value?

Piracy is a mute issue on Macs that I've personally wished it to be discussed.

A mute issue? It's not really. There are plenty of examples of Mac software piracy and the ways the devs prevent it.

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January 9, 2010 6:42 pm
lecycliste

lecycliste

Automaton Tech

from Switzerland
122 posts

I think by "mute issue" he means:  an issue that is not openly discussed - and he was seeking some discussion

Cycling leads to Wisdom

January 9, 2010 7:03 pm
blue_fireball_eater

blue_fireball_eater

Moderator

from Nashville
2,745 posts

I support this decision, although I would have preferred the creation of a new website that attracts all of the bad apples away. You could call it "MacHeist Teen Edition."

avatar is from Penfield & Jasper, 1954

January 9, 2010 8:22 pm
Scandalous

Scandalous

Sky Pirate

1,528 posts

blue_fireball_eater wrote:

I support this decision, although I would have preferred the creation of a new website that attracts all of the bad apples away. You could call it "MacHeist Teen Edition."

Haha. or "MacHeist - Bad Apples Division".

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January 9, 2010 9:21 pm
WalrusCP

WalrusCP

Big Game Hunter

from NoVA
897 posts

I, for one, managed to have two successful and mutually beneficial trades here for apps whose developers were happy to oblige the transfers. That said, I know there are users who have abused or would abuse the system, which puts MacHeist and the Directorate in an awkward position. So I understand the decision. It's just a shame that some bad/dumb/irresponsible users made this a problem.

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January 9, 2010 10:27 pm
mtaylor

mtaylor

Big Game Hunter

755 posts

izdale wrote:

Their last bundle had over 40,000 sales. That's a very large drop.

Wow, I see.  The bundles I call failures, you'd probably call "train wrecks" Macweed springs to mind. smile

cheers!

In communist russia, the normal force pushes on you!

January 9, 2010 11:03 pm
Miah

Miah

Moderator

3,679 posts

There's a difference between MUPromo's recent failure and MacWeed. MacWeed is simply a failure to launch, but MacUpdate is a known and trusted brand. You're reversing what I would actually call a train wreck, but yoou're on the right track.

䷟䷽䷏䷁ — Dying of the Light.

January 10, 2010 1:10 am
denny_crane

denny_crane

Sky Pirate

from Canada, eh?
1,702 posts

Miah wrote:

There's a difference between MUPromo's recent failure and MacWeed. MacWeed is simply a failure to launch, but MacUpdate is a known and trusted brand. You're reversing what I would actually call a train wreck, but you're on the right track.

Very punny.

Use Denny's DropBox Link > CLICK HERE! Because I need extra some space - The Final Frontier!

January 10, 2010 2:51 am
f16332

f16332

Sky Pirate

1,135 posts

denny_crane wrote:
Miah wrote:

There's a difference between MUPromo's recent failure and MacWeed. MacWeed is simply a failure to launch, but MacUpdate is a known and trusted brand. You're reversing what I would actually call a train wreck, but you're on the right track.

Very punny.

Good one.

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January 10, 2010 3:04 am
mtaylor

mtaylor

Big Game Hunter

755 posts

lol.

In communist russia, the normal force pushes on you!

January 10, 2010 5:28 am
dsw1958

dsw1958

Big Game Hunter

856 posts

Cool, no problem.  I completely understand your decision.

January 10, 2010 5:50 am
mil

mil

Sky Pirate

1,273 posts

Edit: Typo: 2dboys.com?! X-(

WLCMac wrote:

Out of curiosity, would MacHeist invite the developers (just a few) to share their personal experiences of piracy on Mac platform and the normal day-to-day operational expanses? So that the next time to make a purchase, I (or others) will make a clear judgement of the software's inherent value?

Piracy is a mute issue on Macs that I've personally wished it to be discussed.

There have been discussions right in these forums in the past, IIRC. To see how people value apps is a continuously changing thing. You should read the 2dboy.com blog (makers of World Of Goo) to see their view of piracy and also on how their "Pay anything for WOG" sale last year went.


JackV wrote:
hias wrote:

amusing to see how some chief bundle splitters and master lincense swappers now love John's decision. kind of absurd.

Why is that? I still would do it if there is another platform available. One must simple consider that this is the forums of the major bundle provider and they just want to keep it clean.

Exactly. I thought the same way too - just delink MacHeist from the bundle splits and license trades. I have done several good trades/splits in the last one year. In all cases, both the parties involved have been very happy.


denny_crane wrote:

Bundle-splitting, in my opinion was an okay thing for everyone EXCEPT the
developer's. Sure the developer moved some licenses, but when it comes to
exchanging licenses... it must be a royal PIA. (pain-in-ass). Considering they
are selling their app. at a ridiculously low price, the whole idea is to make it
as admin-free as possible. Receiving 100's of emails to exchange licenses
is NOT admin-free cuz it's totally PIA. I tried to do a bundle-split a month
ago and in emailing developers for the license exchanges - I was NOT receiving
responses. That in itself is a most obvious indicator how they feel about bundle
splits and an indicator to me these really are not a good idea for ALL parties
concerned. In other words = FAIL.

Actually, with the number of bundle sales that have happened in the past few years, I'd be surprised if a developer thought that license transfer requests wouldn't come in. As for the low pricing and stuff, it's part of the bundle participation. I don't see the license transfer or split as something the developer doesn't sign up for (although it's not something they explicitly sign up for, it sure lurks around and is hard to believe that a percentage of sales wouldn't result in such requests).

As for developers not responding to license transfer requests, those may usually be developers who wouldn't respond to any support email promptly. I've observed that developers who're prompt in providing application support are also prompt in providing license transfer support, and vice versa. In my experience it's more about good overall support than about license transfer requests being neglected, because at the end of the day, your customers are going to form an opinion about you from the way you respond. And word of mouth about bad/no responses is best avoided or reduced. Even if the support request load is high and results in delays, developers can still provide a satisfactory experience for the users who contact them. The key is caring and communication. That's usually not taught in Programming 101. big_smile


denny_crane wrote:

App trading on here has/had become quite ridiculous. I really pity the Fools who list
all kinds of apps they have (free apps & loot apps from MH & others) and then
make up a list of "higher grade" apps. they are looking for.

Yeah, many trade lists were so skewed that they bordered on "can this be any more ridiculous than it is now?" tongue


denny_crane wrote:

In my mind I was always thinking... go out and get a job, and earn your $20-40
in 2 to 4 hours, and then purchase your MUCH DESIRED app. direct from the developer.

Hehe, earning $20-40 in 2 to 4 hours is not for everyone. Not even those who have somehow got hold of a Mac but are struggling in some other ways.

SpiderOak - get an additional 1GB space for free when you sign up from this link. I'm late to the SpiderOak referral party. big_smile

January 10, 2010 6:37 am
johnred

johnred

Directorate

1,869 posts

mil wrote:
denny_crane wrote:

Bundle-splitting, in my opinion was an okay thing for everyone EXCEPT the
developer's. Sure the developer moved some licenses, but when it comes to
exchanging licenses... it must be a royal PIA. (pain-in-ass). Considering they
are selling their app. at a ridiculously low price, the whole idea is to make it
as admin-free as possible. Receiving 100's of emails to exchange licenses
is NOT admin-free cuz it's totally PIA. I tried to do a bundle-split a month
ago and in emailing developers for the license exchanges - I was NOT receiving
responses. That in itself is a most obvious indicator how they feel about bundle
splits and an indicator to me these really are not a good idea for ALL parties
concerned. In other words = FAIL.

Actually, with the number of bundle sales that have happened in the past few years, I'd be surprised if a developer thought that license transfer requests wouldn't come in. As for the low pricing and stuff, it's part of the bundle participation. I don't see the license transfer or split as something the developer doesn't sign up for (although it's not something they explicitly sign up for, it sure lurks around and is hard to believe that a percentage of sales wouldn't result in such requests).

As for developers not responding to license transfer requests, those may usually be developers who wouldn't respond to any support email promptly. I've observed that developers who're prompt in providing application support are also prompt in providing license transfer support, and vice versa. In my experience it's more about good overall support than about license transfer requests being neglected, because at the end of the day, your customers are going to form an opinion about you from the way you respond. And word of mouth about bad/no responses is best avoided or reduced. Even if the support request load is high and results in delays, developers can still provide a satisfactory experience for the users who contact them. The key is caring and communication. That's usually not taught in Programming 101. big_smile

Trust me, all the license transfer bullshit isn't something that developers are expecting to deal with, nor enjoy dealing with. When they sign up to participate in a bundle, whether it's ours or someone else's, one of the last things they want to deal with is a bunch of emails from people who nickel-and-dime'd them for their apps.

You can use the argument that more users = better, but at what cost? If a developer get hundreds of thousands of new users through participating in a bundle, with virtually no energy expended from them, I consider that a big win... but if they have to manually deal with a large bunch of the I-paid-two-dollars-for-this-through-a-split-and-I-want-you-to-serve-me-now crowd, that's a big loss, IMO.

And you can also point out that they can and should be automating the license transfer process to make it easier on themselves. But that's pretty laughable and developers have much better things to be doing with their time.

Honestly, if I was still handling my own support and I was getting license transfer requests, they'd quickly become great friends with my delete key. I encourage other developers to do the same.

John Casasanta
MacHeist Director
tap tap tap chief

January 10, 2010 7:19 am
dadama

dadama

Automaton Tech

from Canada
120 posts

The whole bundle splitting/license trading gained popularity largely for two reasons: the plethora of bundles that were offered last year and this forum. It's difficult to say how many bundles sales were lost due to trading/reselling but I suspect that the lack of bundle sales had more to do with the sheer number of bundles being offered (including other offers such as the One Finger Discount) and the content of the bundles themselves (e.g., you really can't compare the last 2 MU bundles for example). In a sense, these bundles offerings have become a victim of their own success.

Nevertheless, from the developers perspective, as Johnred and others point out, it must be a huge hassle for the developers and I can see how they might be reluctant to participate in bundles in the future; particular with MacHeist which hosted all the wheeling and dealing.

I support closing down the software bazaar. As lecyclistes suggests, it will improve the discussions in the forums.

Cheers!

January 10, 2010 8:21 am
MacHeist Forums » Deals Around the Web » License trading and bundle splits no more

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