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Despite coming close, I never actually got involved in a bundle split and I always wondered about the ethics of doing so. To be honest I would be more than happy for the practice to be banned, by Macheist and/or the developers themselves.

In that context, I'm somewhat concerned about Jo123 and izdale's attempts to move the splits to another forum. Perhaps it's best to have the developers themselves enforce this (in retrospect, obvious) rule.

Uuhhh, nice name calling here. Now they get spammed from the rotten apples here that want access as well.

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What "obvious rule" is that? Past experience shows that very few developers outright prohibit license transfers, while a few refuse to update their license databases but then do not concern themselves with whether or not the person using the app is the person who originally paid for it.

The only possible rule that can be elucidated from this (and to be honest it's more a trend or rule of thumb) is that the vast majority of developers don't care about bundle splits. The only data point contrary to this are johnred's unsubstantiated claims that he has spoken to unnamed developers about the issue.

If the directorate don't want splits arranged on MH that's fine, but there's no need for you to worry yourself about what others may or may not be doing elsewhere on the internet.

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That's an overreaching assumption; just because we haven't had a flood of developers personally say that bundle splits further devalue their software (which, IMHO, it does) or state any other opposition to bundle splits doesn't immediately lead to any "rule" that they don't care.

And I'm willing to trust John's word on this. Why shouldn't I? He's the leader of a major bundle and that in and of itself involves him deeply in the Mac developer community.

Marathon Forever.
AppShelf: MacHeist 3 Loot
AppShelf: nanoBundle 1
Check Reciept Page for nanoBundle 2 AppShelf Files.

This. QFT. etc...

John and Phill's respective opinions ought to weigh heavily in this discussion; their authority on the topic at hand is fairly obvious, from both the perspective of a developer and a bundle organizer.

Also, there's my favorite "it's their sandbox, ergo, their rules" argument that nobody seems to be able to refute

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It makes more sense than the counter possibility: that developers are being quiet about bundle splits because they do care. Remember it was samj who was pulling out rules where there clearly aren't any, I specifically said my "rule" wasn't a rule.

As the leader of a major bundle John is one of the only people in this thread with any incentive to oppose splits, that's why you shouldn't take his word for anything. Especially since all of his claims that the decision is purely for the benefit of developers can be easily disproved.

Most people who care about this issue have accepted things and moved on, there's no need for people to keep perpetuating the groundless arguments presented earlier in the thread as an excuse to get all righteously indignant about a now extra-forum issue.

Refute it some people can't even read it

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It's just about time for an animated .gif......

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That's a ridiculous line of reasoning and you know it. It's like saying that developers support murdering kittens because they don't say that they don't support murdering kittens.

Have you read any of the past posts in this thread? What possible incentive do developers have to take part in bundles like this if they know that people are, through bundle splits, invalidating the very reasons that such participation economically viable? The only people who "win" out of bundle splits are the cheapskates with a bloated sense of self-entitlement. That such people would demand that developers divert time and energy – that could have gone into improving and fixing their products - into some kind of system to make [s]piracy through trading[/s] license transfers easier for them only adds insult to injury. No wonder why more developers are abandoning the Mac for the iPhone.

Even though some seem to insist on arguing for their right to rip off developers or other users using some alleged conspiracy by the Directorate as justification, I'll agree with you that this is a dead horse which needs to be left for dead.

Marathon Forever.
AppShelf: MacHeist 3 Loot
AppShelf: nanoBundle 1
Check Reciept Page for nanoBundle 2 AppShelf Files.

Let's get this nice and clear. You are a mod and so apparently speak with authority, you also appear to be parroting John's comments from earlier but I don't want to put words into his mouth.

Is it the official MH line that splits are banned:

1) Because they create extra work for developers who have to respond to email requests for transfers.

2) Because they create an opportunity for piracy because it's difficult to ensure the original purchaser doesn't keep using the key.

3) In no way is because split can potentially reduce the total number of bundle sales due to several users buying a single bundle rather than going separately even though several apps then don't get used.

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John´s authority as a developer is not obvious. I bought iclip years ago. It is now abandonware and John doesn´t care at all. It´s a shame.

Right, this is what I do understand. But you can hardly call this an "argument".

It's too bad that there isn't a link to take 250MB away from strangetpwn's Dropbox. I'd click in a heartbeat.

avatar is from Penfield & Jasper, 1954

Now that's an original suggestion.
(very funny!)
+1

Use Denny's DropBox Link > CLICK HERE! Because I need extra some space - The Final Frontier!

So instead of contributing to the discussion, or, in the absence of anything relevant to add simply opting to stay quite, you decided to go with the personal attack. Stay classy mate.

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Yeah, I agree ad hominem attacks are uncalled for here.

If you want an argument, you got one. Let's get started.

Believe it or not, we mods tend to have our own opinions. Sometimes if they're too controversial, we don't bring them up. I can't speak for the rest of the mods, but that's how it is now and that's how it was for me before I was a mod. The only difference is that if I need to let the mods know about an event, I can do it where it won't become a big public scene.

Don't think for a second that as mods we exist to echo the directorate. It insults my credibility and more unforgivably it insults my intelligence.

You're pretty much zero for three.

1) Developers can choose whether they will or won't. A classic example is Ambrosia and every product they sell.

2) So close, but the mar was missed. The question was not whether or not it happens, but what we can do about it when it does. On one hand, we can't level a proper judgement as it's always going to be one word versus another, and on the other hand if we do nothing at all, then suddenly we would be accessories to piracy and theft. There is no winning situation for us if people are looking to forum software for this sort of function.

3) We can't actually know this, but it should suffice to say that bundle splits are not common enough to make a huge dent in bundle sales. That said however, the mere fact that we would support such a thing would only scream questionably ethical business practices on MacHeist's part.

䷟䷽䷏䷁ — Dying of the Light.

That wasn't my intention, I'm simply looking for a unambiguous statement on why splits are now banned. I thought the mods were privy to some internal "memo" from the directorate. You state that isn't the case which means everyone here (including the mods) are simply supplying their own narrative to the decision and so can be largely dismissed.

The only authoritative statements are those made by John, but those are the most controversial since they are largely made up of hearsay, and are contradictory.

Illustrative of this is the fact that my 3 previous points were based solely on John's comments in this thread, and yet you have a completely different interpretation of the directorate's motivations.

Of course at the end of the day there's no onus on John to explain himself here, but then I (and maybe others) can continue to interpret the policy change as an anti-costumer move to protect MH's bottom-line poorly hidden behind the tired old white-wash of "blame it on piracy".

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Phillryu's opening post in this thread provides a very good explanation about the reasons behind the Directorate's decisions.

Well you're not going to get one. There is no such memo. What there was, was conversation and debate all leading to the same conclusion - and some had different reasons for the same conclusion. If you want the Directorate's take on this, read their posts; namely the head post. It's the closest thing to a memo there was on the matter.

䷟䷽䷏䷁ — Dying of the Light.

This thread reminds me of...

In communist russia, the normal force pushes on you!

How do you know? You've already said you don't speak officially on behalf of the directorate, so how can you say whether or not John will choose to respond to my questions?

The head post doesn't explain the justification behind the decision to ban splits since it's very easily proven wrong. It's also contradicted by John's later contributions where he expresses his own views on the developer/customer/licensing relationship, which to me read like they were taken out of the RIAA handbook.

I don't want to know your opinions on whether or not spits should be allowed, nor do i want your interpretation on how John's comments should be taken. I don't foresee a time where you and I will perform any business transaction, so your ethics are of no material concern to me. As head of MH, John's however, are.

And to preempt you I don't want personal anecdotes on any past business dealings with John either. He's shown he's perfectly capable of writing a post with gems like...

...why do some people feel the need to speak for him now?

If I haven't quoted you, or there is little likelihood of me ever needing to trust you with my credit card details, i.e. you are not part of MH nor a developer, don't feel under any obligation to respond to me directly in this thread since none of my posts are directed at you.

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The question isn't really if johnred will respond directly to your questions, but if such anwsers would actually satisfy you. You said yourself that:

Which brings me to:

Speaking for him? Let me clue you in on something: John is perfectly capable of speaking for himself, and so am I. I'm speaking for myself because I agree with the conclusion but for possibly different reasons than the Directorate.

Think of this as how political issues go. If many people are against the war in Iraq, for instance, you'll find that there isn't a single reason that everyone arrives to the same conclusion. Many people will agree on something, but that doesn't make it their primary reason for supporting a cause.

My statements are the same way and what I say on this topic tend to reflect my main driving force for supporting such a thing.

And yet here you are doing it again, insinuating that I feel the need to speak for John as if I were a puppet.

䷟䷽䷏䷁ — Dying of the Light.

Strangetpwn, you've said you don't want Miah's opinions or interpretations (and by extension, anyone else but John's), and you're saying you can dismiss everyone's opinion but John's. You've implied conspiracy theories, as well as called John a liar.

I honestly don't know why you are here... you have so little regard for the John, the rest of the people associated with MH, as well as the MH community, that I personally feel you need to have the courage of your convictions and never, ever buy another MacHeist bundle again. Delete your licenses from the nanoBundle, if you got it. Don't accept the free loot, the bonus apps, the ability to get several hundreds of dollars worth of software for less than 10% of the cost. Don't be a part of something that you seem to feel is so corrupt and based on lies and anti-consumerism. Stand up for your views!

My view is also that the decision has been made, debated, explained, and that this dead, dead horse is being beaten until it is unrecognizable. I'd love to see a lock, myself.

To quote yourself quoting yourself:

If you don't agree with phillryu's original reasons stated at the beginning, that's fine, and you've expressed your views. Now maybe you can just leave it at what you said above in the quote.

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I'd like to see this thread locked too.  The decision's been made.  We've discussed it with opinions going both ways and every way in between.  The horse, as Jeff_R said, is now dead beyond recognition.  If you don't like it, nobody's forcing you to do or not do anything.  I have nothing more to say.

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"I invented the term Object-Oriented, and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind."
- Alan Kay, inventor of Object-Oriented programming

avatar is from Penfield & Jasper, 1954

^ ^ The only thing that would make this better is if it were an animated gif...

Sometimes I feel so blue
It makes me twitter.

Read through the thread. There are several reasons why we killed all activity related to license trading and bundle splits. I'm not going to go over them again for your convenience.

What I will add is that over time, I've been observing our forums devolve into a cesspool of subtle piracy and it was a growing concern of mine. We put an abrupt stop to it with the new policy.

You paraphrased 3 reasons I said, then made the assertion that they're contradictory. They're not in the least. You also implied that we have some sort of hidden agenda and we're doing this because we'd like to capitalize on the 5 or 10 lost sales from bundle trades. Do the math versus the amount one of our typical bundles takes in and you'll see how ridiculous this is.

Now to address the fact that you're basically calling me a liar... I'm going to simply say that you're being a complete asshole here. I'm much more direct than that and if my motive for this policy was to do as you are claiming, I wouldn't make up some weak, bullshit excuse, as you're accusing me of doing.

John Casasanta
MacHeist Director
tap tap tap chief

MacHeist forums have always been strictly anti-piracy. There is no better way to have a thread closed here than to encourage piracy, and no better way to be banned than to be caught using the forums for piracy. This aspect is not new, nor is it uncharacteristic. This rationale alone would have been enough to make the change, but there were plenty of other good reasons to spare.

avatar is from Penfield & Jasper, 1954

Thanks for taking the time to respond John.

While it’s been fun to watch certain MH members expose themselves as two-faced hypocrites and liars by publically claiming they have never supported splits and trades, when there are posts, PMs and emails proving they have actually taken part in ones the past (you people know who you are) I’m getting bored, so it’s time to lay our cards on the table.

So far you have not provided any reason why discussion of MH bundle splits (specifically and limited to MH bundles) needs to be banned. And until you can I will continue to (silently – I’m not going to post any more in this thread) question your integrity.

The argument that bundle splits create extra work for developers does not apply in the case of MH bundle splits since all the work is done through the MH gifting feature. It makes absolutely no difference to individual developers whether I arrange to split a MH bundle with a friend in real-life versus one or more I met on the MH forum.

The argument that bundle splits create piracy since there is no way to ensure the original purchaser doesn’t continue to use the license information does not apply in the case of MH bundle splits since license information is sent directly to the person assigned as the gift recipient at the time of purchase.

The argument that bundle splits have little or no impact on sales revenues for the bundle organizer is yours so I’ll let it stand, in which case this also fails to provide a reason not to allow MH bundle splits to be arranged on the forum.

MH had the opportunity to provide a convenient and safe model of how splits can work for the bundle market, but instead decided to choose the option that limits customer choice the most.

You say this decision has been brewing for a while, and yet you sat back and watched the most recent MUPromo (one of your major competitors) turn into “probably the biggest failure in bundle history as far as the major bundle players go.” But then you still want to claim this is not a business decision, and that it's actually the fault of piracy.

You want me to accept that you're simply a victim of bad timing (that it's purely a coincidence that this new policy comes nicely after most other bundle organizations have finished their activities but before MH holds its flagship event) while dismissing anyone looking to maintain a dialog on the issue as simply thieves on the make.

A previous poster talked of the need of having the courage of your convictions, and I couldn’t agree more. The only way for me to prove I’m not a thief is to continue to support bundles through purchases, and to make sure that any splits I’m involved in are legitimate and follow the terms of the bundle.

The way you can convince me that your intentions are pure is to allow spits of MH bundles (since they do not present any of the issues raised) on the forum.

I’m prepared to put my money where my mouth is, are you?

I pledge to show my support for a decision to allow MH bundle splits by buying at least one copy of the next MH bundle for myself (whether I need any of the apps or not) as well as a second which I will split for free among the next n* (n* = number of apps in the bundle) individuals (excluding MH staff and mods) to post in this thread.

Obviously if splits are still prohibited it will be impossible for me to arrange who gets which free app, in which case everyone gets nothing.

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• All Vikings owned boats.

• Abe Lincoln once rode in a boat.

• Therefore, Abe Lincoln was a Viking.

See? I can also play the moronic logic game, too.

With the combination of this thread and your "contribution" to The Mac Bundle Box - Haiti Relief Bundle, you've undoubtedly relegated yourself to the highest level of idiotic troll now. Congrats.

John Casasanta
MacHeist Director
tap tap tap chief

1. Who said MH4 will not include a gifting form? (notice gifting is not the same as splitting, where everyone pays a share of the cost)
2. Who writes such a long post when they are bored with the topic?
3. Even gifting a full bundle is unlikely to redeem you from being an asshole.

avatar is from Penfield & Jasper, 1954

Having discussions, sharing of opinions, and debating are really quite a positive thing to have (on here). At times, a discussion or two becomes a little too heated and needs some refereeing to bring high emotions down and to call out the below the belt jabs.

However, the statements "it's been fun to watch" & "I'm getting bored" are something of a completely different sort. It is highly indicative of being mean spirited. I must say, this is a first time I've ever seen that sort of thing within these forums from one individual towards another, or in this case others. The statements are suggestive of an individual being deliberately incendiary towards other individuals here - differences of opinion or not.

Being the case as I have noted, I would like to suggest strangetpwn be removed from MH so he may seek out a new "playground." If anyone else is in agreement, please do say so.

EDIT: Spelling >

Use Denny's DropBox Link > CLICK HERE! Because I need extra some space - The Final Frontier!

I couldn't agree more, denny_crane. The venom seems so completely out of step with what's being done that there really seems to be another agenda going on here. He accuses John and the community of being liars and hypocrites, yet says he will continue to buy MH bundles, in fact commits to buying two, which would mean he's supporting liars. Seems very strange to me, and highly suspect. I'm done with him, and again, I thank John and the directorate for the new policy. (And compliment John on his restraint on not banning strangetpwn outright.)

Dear John,
would you please stop posting here and prepare MH4? Please?

sincerely yours,
hias

Perhaps MH4 is done, so he has time to watch us beg and plead with no fear of deadlines.

Wow, Denny.  It's certainly not the first time I've seen disparaging comments from one person directed at another person or MH on these forums - not by a long stretch.  I, myself, have recently been the recipient of 'negative vibes' directed my way in these forums.

Absolutely not!  Sometimes the best way to disarm provocateurs is to simply ignore them.  As far as I can tell, strangetpwn hasn't violated any forum rules and hasn't said anything that the rest of us need to be protected from by removing him from the forums.

I'd say that some people are so annoying that they could ruin any chance of other people enjoying the forums. As has been brought up before, there is no button to ignore users and it would make the threads incomprehensible if there were people replying to ignored comments, etc. However, I have only really seen two threads where strangetpwn has caused any controversy. Its not a good start, but s/he is not posting trash indiscriminately and seems to be sincerely expressing his/her feelings, if not opinions.

While users have been banned before due, at least in part, to being incredibly annoying and trashing lots of threads, I have not seen this happen without an at least seemingly wide consensus of annoyed users in a larger number of threads. This thread was full of drama from the beginning and the MacBundleBox thread deserves the emphasis anyways.

avatar is from Penfield & Jasper, 1954

@rpcohen @blue_fireball_eater

Okey-dokey. I do recognize & believe in the "free speech" concept (very much so) and
can stand down on my suggestion.

How about this? We could impose some good ol' northern Canadian hospitality...
Tied to the back of a dogsled and taken out for a bit of a scraping on the frozen tundra.
(spoken in full jest)

Use Denny's DropBox Link > CLICK HERE! Because I need extra some space - The Final Frontier!

+1 Either that or tar and feathers.

avatar is from Penfield & Jasper, 1954

Sounds like a plan, Denny!

As a fellow Canuck, +1.3 (for the exchange rate)

People should be allowed to discuss an alternative to this forum.  After all, we do still have our freedom of speech.

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Pro-tip: No you do not, not on this privately owned forum.

Timi: +1
fr0stbyt: -1

This is MacHeist's forum, and one cannot mandate anything here unless you're the owners of these forums.

SpiderOak - get an additional 1GB space for free when you sign up from this link. I'm late to the SpiderOak referral party.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, your freedom of speech is non-existent as a right in private forums. You do have the right to set up your own forum, but you (and I and everyone) have no rights here except those that the MacHeist folks choose to give us. This isn't a public park; this is more analogous to someone's house (albeit a fairly full and busy one).

If you feel that people should have the right to discuss alternatives, then the best way to protest it if MacHeist doesn't permit it is to simply boycott MacHeist.

Question for the directorate/staff/mods, I bought the bundles (and all the other MH bundles so far) I have no interest in the monkey island game but would like a second license for ripit or coverscout (even with the terrible registration system they have) would I still be able to trade with someone else who had paid for the bundle?

Keep up the great work

oh and SwitchResX, Rivet, Clipstart, Tangerine and Cinch would make a great MH4 bundle

In all honesty, when you're getting $300 worth of apps for $20, is it so hard for people to afford the $20? If MH didn't exist, you'd be paying way more than $20 for even one of the apps in the bundle. The group buys seem a little disingenuous to me, only because you're already getting 90% off, and now you're trying to get it EVEN cheaper? I mean, the developers are already taking a hit for you, support them.

Gifting makes more sense on a small scale where one person buys the bundle, won't use 1-2 of the apps and wants to send them to a friend. But group buys just seem a little petty at this point. Paying the full bundle price isn't going to break the bank. Really? You need to split a $20 bundle 4 ways?

I know there are people that will support group buying until the day they die, and I understand where they are coming from, especially today when saving money and being thrifty is becoming more commonplace, and in some cases, necessary. However, I feel that the discount MH gives me is MORE than generous, and that I shouldn't try to dissuade x other people from paying the full $20, just so we can split the bundle in x ways to save money. Just pay the $20 and support the developers.

Not attacking those who do group buy, just giving my opinion on MH and how group buys could be negative (detracts from the amount of people buying the bundle, causing less to go to charity and the developers, even taking into account that SOME people wouldn't buy it at all unless they could group buy - however the number of those people is hard to quantify.)

So many people misunderstand Freedom of Speech. You waive your rights to Freedom of Speech when you join a forum owned by another company/group than yourself. You are subject to MH's rules and guidelines when you sign up.

Sure, in your own forum or own place of expression (such as a blog owned by you, hosted by you), you do have such a freedom.

Freedom of Speech doesn't mean you can say anything you want, any time you want, anywhere you want.

But it's worth pointing out that we try to preserve everyone's freedom of speech as much as we can on the MacHeist forums. There are only a few cases where we take exception, like illegal topics such as piracy, etc.

People are generally open to speaking their minds here, no matter how critical they are of us, but we do draw the line when something is completely inflammatory and over the top. It's been pretty rare that that's happened, though, and I have to thank our mod staff for helping to keep people acting reasonably, no matter how heated things sometimes get.

John Casasanta
MacHeist Director
tap tap tap chief