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Gruber sells his app through MacHeist and gets a lousy t-shirt

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shadownight

shadownight

Sky Pirate

from Montreal, Canada
1,567 posts

It looks like John Gruber is still unhappy... Check out his newest MacHeist-complaining article here, and learn how he gets a lousy t-shirt for his app... or not. Maybe at one point he'll get tired of writing and linking to negative MacHeist articles like he's done for the past week.

Back on my two feet

December 19, 2006 1:22 am
Query

Query

Automaton Tech

from New York, USA
289 posts

Mr. Gruber just wants attention.

December 19, 2006 1:30 am
Brandon

Brandon

Automaton Tech

216 posts

Query wrote:

Mr. Gruber just wants attention.

Seems like it.

December 19, 2006 1:33 am
phillryu

phillryu

Administrator

1,569 posts

I think it's important to note how wildly inaccurate his estimations are. Seriously. Doubling his estimation of dev fees would bring it closer to reality, but even then, not quite.

Co-Creator of MacHeist, Clear, Partner at tap tap tap | follow me on twitter

December 19, 2006 1:35 am

Thenomain

Gearhead

95 posts

Maybe we can look at this as just someone who's trying to make sense of numbers that (edit) were not otherwise forthcoming and making a conclusion that is touching a nerve.

If MacHeist did a good job bringing awareness of the Shareware Developers to a larger audience, a lot of people here are now doing a good job showing just how confrontational the community can be about things they don't like.  What kind of message does that send?

December 19, 2006 1:38 am
jdcfsu

jdcfsu

Automaton Tech

268 posts

It's either attention, jealousy, or just a sheer need to stir stuff up.  As it's been said many places now, the deals negotiated were agreed to by everyone and we should leave it at that.  I'm pretty tired of all these "yeah, $200k to charity is great but everyone else gets screwed" blogs.  Some of these guys had interesting articles before but it's really keeping me from wanting to visit their stuff again.

I like to pull heists.

December 19, 2006 1:39 am
shadownight

shadownight

Sky Pirate

from Montreal, Canada
1,567 posts

Query wrote:

Mr. Gruber just wants attention.

Absolutely.

phillryu wrote:

I think it's important to note how wildly inaccurate his estimations are. Seriously. Doubling his estimation of dev fees would bring it closer to reality, but even then, not quite.

I'm glad to hear that smile

Back on my two feet

December 19, 2006 1:39 am
lancestraz

lancestraz

Gearhead

from RI
65 posts

Scenario 1: MacHeist tricked, blackmailed, threatened, and/or lied to the developers. Resulting in them getting screwed.

Scenario 2: MacHeist made an offer to developers, developers accepted. Resulting in them getting what what was agreed. (and then some)

If scenario 1 is true, I say we picket in front of Phill's house.
If scenario 2 is true, I say we MIND OUR OWN BUSINESS!

December 19, 2006 2:49 am
max

max

Sky Pirate

1,167 posts

Even if you double the developer's fee, you still leave the Directorate making out like bandits. Which is okay by me as long as it's okay with the devs of the apps (which, judging by their participation, it is). They had a great idea and deserve to reap the benefits. I only wish I'd thought of it wink

December 19, 2006 3:20 am
Strongblade

Strongblade

Gearhead

53 posts

phillryu wrote:

I think it's important to note how wildly inaccurate his estimations are. Seriously. Doubling his estimation of dev fees would bring it closer to reality, but even then, not quite.

Well, with a lead in like that, I think I have figured out what the 6th Heist might be...

Figure out exactly how widely inaccurate Gruber's 'Estimation' was on the end result!

big_smile

Strongblade!

December 19, 2006 3:35 am

alej744

Sky Pirate

from Miami
1,813 posts

I think it's important to note how WILDLY INACCURATE his estimations are!

heh heh

December 19, 2006 3:35 am
Jon

Jon

Automaton Tech

from Edmonton, AB, Canada
247 posts

Strongblade wrote:
phillryu wrote:

I think it's important to note how wildly inaccurate his estimations are. Seriously. Doubling his estimation of dev fees would bring it closer to reality, but even then, not quite.

Well, with a lead in like that, I think I have figured out what the 6th Heist might be...

Figure out exactly how widely inaccurate Gruber's 'Estimation' was on the end result!

big_smile

True this could all be part of the next Heist. wink Wow, what a marketing machine that would be.

--overout--
www.twitter.com

December 19, 2006 3:53 am

ghibertii

Urchin

1 posts

If you are willing to hype the amount donated, I would like to know the followoing:

a. Average payout to developers of software
b. Average payout to Macheist team

December 19, 2006 3:55 am
Warbrain

Warbrain

Banned

from Not here.
6,979 posts

The stupid stuff that he says on his blog has always turned me off and made me not want to read his posts.  He can get so outrageous and attention-craving that it's ridiculous.

Website | Twitter

December 19, 2006 4:05 am
Adam Betts

Adam Betts

Gearhead

from Greenfield, MA
81 posts

As much as I'm a fan of his work (I even own a Daring Fireball t-shirt,) he should stick to what he does the best, writing about Mac news.  He is far from being an experienced accountant and throwing around wildly estimated numbers is not going to help his credibility in any way.

Lately his blatant attacks on Phill Ryu, Jackass of the Week posts and making a mountains out of molehills on Airport Card exploit story are going a little too far, in my eyes.  What happened to the old John Gruber, the one who got him to where he is nowaday?  I don't recall him being an asshat like he is now, desperately trying to get some attention by bashing other people.

www.artofadambetts.com

December 19, 2006 4:15 am
skimpson

skimpson

Automaton Tech

from Ohio
107 posts

im disappointed in Mr. Gruber, i usually like reading his blog, but the ones that have been directed at MacHeist show what happens when information that is not supposed to be revealed is guessed at/leaked.  Gruber is basing his entire rant on speculated numbers, thus destroying any credibility he has.

December 19, 2006 4:23 am
rampancy

rampancy

Moderator

from Denial.
3,889 posts

Oh brother. And this brings out the posters who repeat their criticism of everything here but pretend to not be critical at all.

Marathon Forever.
AppShelf: MacHeist 3 Loot
AppShelf: nanoBundle 1
Check Reciept Page for nanoBundle 2 AppShelf Files.

December 19, 2006 4:31 am
Micrll

Micrll

Gearhead

54 posts

I haven't been reading every article about this but I have read enough.

1.  I got great deal on a bundle.
2.  Developers got the money they agreed to
3.  Directorate made tons of money, go figure

Yep capitalism works.

December 19, 2006 4:52 am
titaniumdecoy

titaniumdecoy

Gearhead

71 posts

He does bring up an interesting point, however, if it is true:

Gruber wrote:

• MacHeist’s percentage share of the total profit: 87.5
• Average percentage share of the total profit for each individual developer: 1.3

December 19, 2006 4:53 am
nemesis256

nemesis256

Tinkerer

from Cambridge, MA
39 posts

titaniumdecoy wrote:

He does bring up an interesting point, however, if it is true:

Gruber wrote:

• MacHeist’s percentage share of the total profit: 87.5
• Average percentage share of the total profit for each individual developer: 1.3

phillryu wrote:

I think it's important to note how wildly inaccurate his estimations are. Seriously. Doubling his estimation of dev fees would bring it closer to reality, but even then, not quite.

Yup...

December 19, 2006 5:07 am

Declin

Tinkerer

49 posts

Even if, as Phill said, it was doubled "and then some," that would still leave the average developer at just under 4 percent, with Phill & Co getting around 1/2 of the take-in as profits.

December 19, 2006 5:49 am

drewaxeman

Urchin

from Australia
2 posts

titaniumdecoy wrote:

He does bring up an interesting point, however, if it is true:

Gruber wrote:

• MacHeist’s percentage share of the total profit: 87.5
• Average percentage share of the total profit for each individual developer: 1.3

Its hardly interesting. I actually work as a software dev, and I get 0% of the profits. I think its standard practice that producers of products received little in terms of overall profit (i.e textiles workers)

But really devs have got a whole swag of new users (myself included, i wouldn't have bought the software previously), 1.3% of profit or whatever flat amount they privately negotiated, plus according to the directors a nice bonus.  The immediate result is overwhelmingly positive and hopefully the long term implications are too (i think they will be).

December 19, 2006 5:49 am
vansouza

vansouza

Sky Pirate

from Las Vegas, USA Earth Milky Way
1,075 posts

Developers agreed to a price, we agreed to a price and in a free market society that means the price was/is set.  Period.  If some portion large or small is cream, so be it.  The nay sayers are beginning to sound very much like vineyard workers, if you get my drift.

www.usheroes.us Pray for Peace. Go Orange!

December 19, 2006 6:07 am
Clay

Clay

Tinkerer

from San Jose
27 posts

Good lord, people... if we'd put this much energy into figuring out how much music artists get from each CD sold in comparison to how much the record label gets, the RIAA would never have come into existance.

The developers involved aren't complaining, so why is anyone else?

They made a profit, and a much larger one than expected.  HOT DAMN!  That means next time will be even better.

Clay
http://MoronLife.com

December 19, 2006 8:37 am
RollingFlo

RollingFlo

Gearhead

72 posts

There were much better blog posts about Macheist with less speculation but more wisdom. Also, several developers of the bundled apps not only said they were content, but raised points like long-term profitability and that a the vast majority of the purchasers would not have bought their app on full price.
I would also add that some of the apps needed the publicity to a) prepare the soil for a major update and/or b) fight off hard competition. 

Gruber ignores all this and focuses, with numbers which he seems to be confirmed by repeating them, on the question of fairness.
But this question can only be answered by the developers themselves.
And if they feel cheated, Phill & co. will not have much success with future projects, so sooner than later, the market will regulate everything anyway. No need for daring avengers of the innocent.

So in the end it's nonsense to get all agitated about this issue. Especially not when you don't know the numbers.

As for attention-grabbing, I don't know if this is really the case. But I think that daring fireball discusses too many issues that help nobody. Is OmniFocus vaporware?  springs to mind. Also, the tone seems to get rougher, more confrontative.
No surprise then that people think he writes for maximum attention.

I still like his site, but less and less.

Fairies wear boots and you gotta believe me!

December 19, 2006 12:17 pm
epochblue

epochblue

Big Game Hunter

from St. Louis, MO
580 posts

I say we put a moratorium on topics such as this.  Gruber's numbers are wrong.  The devs agreed to the deal on their own volition.  Phill & Co did their jobs damn-near perfectly.  Everyone is happy (except Gruber, but that's because he has no one else to piss on this week).

-- epochblue rolls with a 15" 1.67Ghz PowerBook G4, a 20GB 4G iPod, and a 2G shuffle.

December 19, 2006 12:41 pm
Finney

Finney

Automaton Tech

from Montreal
161 posts

lancestraz wrote:

Scenario 1: MacHeist tricked, blackmailed, threatened, and/or lied to the developers. Resulting in them getting screwed.

Scenario 2: MacHeist made an offer to developers, developers accepted. Resulting in them getting what what was agreed. (and then some)

If scenario 1 is true, I say we picket in front of Phill's house.
If scenario 2 is true, I say we MIND OUR OWN BUSINESS!

I guess it's obviously number one... tongue

December 19, 2006 12:44 pm
Warbrain

Warbrain

Banned

from Not here.
6,979 posts

epochblue wrote:

I say we put a moratorium on topics such as this.  Gruber's numbers are wrong.  The devs agreed to the deal on their own volition.  Phill & Co did their jobs damn-near perfectly.  Everyone is happy (except Gruber, but that's because he has no one else to piss on this week).

Considering that this is a forum and we're taking part in this promotion, we have every right to have topics like these.  Questions always need to be asked about the promotion, whether or not the information someone got was wrong or is misinformed or whatever.  While some of the people who are against promotions such as these should be polite enough to not open their mouths about it and go on with their lives thinking that they did better, this is not the case.  And the only way to counteract the negative opinions out there are to discuss them and show that they are incorrect in their opinions.

Website | Twitter

December 19, 2006 12:47 pm
epochblue

epochblue

Big Game Hunter

from St. Louis, MO
580 posts

Warbrain wrote:

Considering that this is a forum and we're taking part in this promotion, we have every right to have topics like these.  Questions always need to be asked about the promotion, whether or not the information someone got was wrong or is misinformed or whatever.  While some of the people who are against promotions such as these should be polite enough to not open their mouths about it and go on with their lives thinking that they did better, this is not the case.  And the only way to counteract the negative opinions out there are to discuss them and show that they are incorrect in their opinions.

Wow.  Okay.  No where did I say people COULD NOT discuss this.  For all I care, you can talk about it until you're blue in the face. However, as I was reading the thread everyone seemed to be going in circles ("Gruber's an asshat" - "But maybe he's right" - "No he's not" - "But maybe" - "No, he's an asshat" ...)

I was merely pointing out that while the specific financial information of MacHeist *should* be confidential, and according to Phill, everything is on the up and up and Gruber is talking out of his ass.  What else is there to talk about?

-- epochblue rolls with a 15" 1.67Ghz PowerBook G4, a 20GB 4G iPod, and a 2G shuffle.

December 19, 2006 1:33 pm
Warbrain

Warbrain

Banned

from Not here.
6,979 posts

epochblue wrote:
Warbrain wrote:

Considering that this is a forum and we're taking part in this promotion, we have every right to have topics like these.  Questions always need to be asked about the promotion, whether or not the information someone got was wrong or is misinformed or whatever.  While some of the people who are against promotions such as these should be polite enough to not open their mouths about it and go on with their lives thinking that they did better, this is not the case.  And the only way to counteract the negative opinions out there are to discuss them and show that they are incorrect in their opinions.

Wow.  Okay.  No where did I say people COULD NOT discuss this.  For all I care, you can talk about it until you're blue in the face. However, as I was reading the thread everyone seemed to be going in circles ("Gruber's an asshat" - "But maybe he's right" - "No he's not" - "But maybe" - "No, he's an asshat" ...)

I was merely pointing out that while the specific financial information of MacHeist *should* be confidential, and according to Phill, everything is on the up and up and Gruber is talking out of his ass.  What else is there to talk about?

You specifically stated that there should be a moratorium on topics like this, so you are saying that there shouldn't be discussions about this.

Website | Twitter

December 19, 2006 2:54 pm
cheerful

cheerful

Big Game Hunter

from Antarctica
500 posts

i find it too complicated to be simply simple.  hence i'll keep it easy.  mmm  sorry i forgot what i wanted to share.  will edit this post later.

in the meantime, thanks again for the lovely experiences!

Penguin in the ArcticZOT

December 19, 2006 2:56 pm

Thenomain

Gearhead

95 posts

artist-illustrator.net wrote:

he's got sand in his vagina. just ignore him

Nice sexism.  Keep up the hate, everybody; we Mac users look better and better when we go rabid like this.

December 19, 2006 3:38 pm
epochblue

epochblue

Big Game Hunter

from St. Louis, MO
580 posts

Warbrain wrote:

You specifically stated that there should be a moratorium on topics like this, so you are saying that there shouldn't be discussions about this.

Fine - let me clarify...I didn't say you didn't have a RIGHT to have topics like these.  I do think this particular topic has been beat to death, though.

-- epochblue rolls with a 15" 1.67Ghz PowerBook G4, a 20GB 4G iPod, and a 2G shuffle.

December 19, 2006 3:45 pm
nemesis256

nemesis256

Tinkerer

from Cambridge, MA
39 posts

Thenomain wrote:
artist-illustrator.net wrote:

he's got sand in his vagina. just ignore him

Nice sexism.  Keep up the hate, everybody; we Mac users look better and better when we go rabid like this.

Never seen South Park, have you?

December 19, 2006 4:13 pm

Thenomain

Gearhead

95 posts

nemesis256 wrote:
Thenomain wrote:
artist-illustrator.net wrote:

he's got sand in his vagina. just ignore him

Nice sexism.  Keep up the hate, everybody; we Mac users look better and better when we go rabid like this.

Never seen South Park, have you?

Does it matter?

December 19, 2006 4:22 pm
artist-illustrator.net

artist-illustrator.net

Dirigible Captain

from Manchester, UK
3,027 posts

erm. . . .sexism?!?

as far as i was aware. . . . .

Sexism is the discrimination and/or hatred against people based on their sex rather than their individual merits

so why do you consider posting

he's got sand in his vagina

being sexist?

I wasn't hating or discriminating against Mr Gruber because he's a man.
it was just a funny quote from South Park, used to illustrate that hes pissed off

is it just simply that I used the word Vagina that offended you? or the fact that I used it when refering to a man?

or have you yourself got sand in your vagina? wink

I'm feeling old

December 19, 2006 4:43 pm
Pinky von Pout

Pinky von Pout

Automaton Tech

from In Photoshop >_<
357 posts

Sand in your vagina?! lol

You learn something new everyday...

**checks knickers**

lol

JellyLabs

December 19, 2006 4:51 pm
rampancy

rampancy

Moderator

from Denial.
3,889 posts

I guess some people don't like South Park? smile

Marathon Forever.
AppShelf: MacHeist 3 Loot
AppShelf: nanoBundle 1
Check Reciept Page for nanoBundle 2 AppShelf Files.

December 19, 2006 4:53 pm
phillryu

phillryu

Administrator

1,569 posts

Well Thenomain, the remark was definitely not made as a sexist joke, but as a reference to a line in a popular TV show... I'm totally serial.

Anyway, let's keep this thread on topic guys.

Co-Creator of MacHeist, Clear, Partner at tap tap tap | follow me on twitter

December 19, 2006 4:55 pm
nemesis256

nemesis256

Tinkerer

from Cambridge, MA
39 posts

phillryu wrote:

I'm totally serial.

And that's another reference to the show, for those who don't know. smile

December 19, 2006 5:20 pm
MacFreak

MacFreak

Automaton Tech

256 posts

phillryu wrote:

Well Thenomain, the remark was definitely not made as a sexist joke, but as a reference to a line in a popular TV show... I'm totally cereal.

Anyway, let's keep this thread on topic guys.

Fixed that for ya..... wink

December 19, 2006 5:23 pm

tbridge

Urchin

5 posts

There's another option here, Phill, you could tell us what actually happened...

Your actual numbers would shed real light on the situation and either completely discredit Gruber or prove his point...

December 19, 2006 6:23 pm

xyrrus

Urchin

2 posts

Why the Gruber hate?

He obviously cares a lot about both the Mac Community and indepentant developers and he is doing is challenging the business model with some numbers. If the profit going to the mac heist team is anywhere near what is being reported - 75%, even adjusted after Phill's recent post - then I think it absolutley calls into question the breakdown. A 75% "broker's fee" would be absolutley unheard of in just about every other industry.

Is the $200K raised for charity a good thing? Yes.
Is the marketing produced here valuable? Yes.
Do the developers feel they got a good deal? Hard to say.
Given the $300,000 profit the Mac Heist team is making, could the developers have gotten a *better* deal? Absolutely.

Gruber is drawing attention to this; and its a point worth making given all the talk of "what's next"

-Xy

December 19, 2006 6:35 pm

air_vet

Tinkerer

29 posts

tbridge wrote:

There's another option here, Phill, you could tell us what actually happened...

Actually, another much better option is for all of us to drop the matter.

Phill has a right to keep the financial arrangements of the Macheist private.  Why would he want to 'share' information that would be of use to possible competitors?

December 19, 2006 6:39 pm

Grayson

Tinkerer

10 posts

It's damn near asinine to attack someone as having "wildly inaccurate" estimations when you're holding all the answers.

I'm not agreeing with Gruber but I think his point is valid.  Based on the numbers at hand, MacHeist makes a disproportionate profit compared to each developer.  The developers may be happy with that.  Fine, that's not the issue.  The issue is that people like me are curious how the profit sharing happened.

The MacHeist crew can settle this by releasing a few numbers.  Until then, Gruber should be allowed to give it a best guess.

December 19, 2006 6:40 pm
phillryu

phillryu

Administrator

1,569 posts

Grayson wrote:

It's damn near asinine to attack someone as having "wildly inaccurate" estimations when you're holding all the answers.

I'm not agreeing with Gruber but I think his point is valid.  Based on the numbers at hand, MacHeist makes a disproportionate profit compared to each developer.  The developers may be happy with that.  Fine, that's not the issue.  The issue is that people like me are curious how the profit sharing happened.

The MacHeist crew can settle this by releasing a few numbers.  Until then, Gruber should be allowed to give it a best guess.

Heh, I attacked him? I just clarified that he was wrong, and emailed him as well about this last night.

For those of you who keep requesting figures, are private business deals something new to you? This is not just me saying this, but the developers involved as well. They think it's ridiculous that there are people actually demanding to see figures.

At the risk of repeating myself, the developers involved are happy with their participation.

Co-Creator of MacHeist, Clear, Partner at tap tap tap | follow me on twitter

December 19, 2006 6:47 pm
booga

booga

Urchin

5 posts

Micrll wrote:

1.  I got great deal on a bundle.
2.  Developers got the money they agreed to
3.  Directorate made tons of money, go figure

Yep capitalism works.

true. but don't ya'll bother me with a community hippie-talk attitude like safe the (mac) planet and fairness for everybody kind of stuff then.

December 19, 2006 6:47 pm

Lagamightymorph

Urchin

7 posts

If the developers agreed to a set amount, wouldn't the percentages look better for the devs if macheist had done a crappy job and the whole thing had tanked?  Because they did a great job and got people excited about the bundle, they ended up increasing the total pot, but they took a risk- if it had gone badly they would have lost money and the devs would still have gained.  As it is, it seems like we win with free and inexpensive great apps, devs get money (+ bonus money) and users, the directorate gets well paid for their part, my friends want macs, and 200k goes to charity.  It doesn't often get better than that!

December 19, 2006 6:52 pm

tbridge

Urchin

5 posts

air_vet wrote:

Phill has a right to keep the financial arrangements of the Macheist private.  Why would he want to 'share' information that would be of use to possible competitors?

Of course he has a right to keep it private, but he also has the right to be criticized.

December 19, 2006 6:54 pm
titaniumdecoy

titaniumdecoy

Gearhead

71 posts

epochblue wrote:

I say we put a moratorium on topics such as this.

I can already see the headlines on digg.

December 19, 2006 6:56 pm
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